Crimean War continues after 1856

[Melvin Loh]

I read when I went to the National Army Museum in Chelsea that after Sebastopol's fall in 1856 Britain apparently wanted to go on fighting, by landing troops in the Baltic, but was persuaded to accept a peace by France and Turkey. Now, WI Britain had still decided to undertake naval and military action against Russia in a Baltic campaign ? How would that have gone down domestically and internationally ?

[czarist]

militarily they wouldve been steamrolled

[Adam Parsons]

Well, if the Russians really wanted to have some fun, they could always send some of their forces into Afganistan, and maybe try for an invasion of India. With the right propaganda, and the main concentration of British forces on the other side of the planet, there isn't much the Brits could do to hold on to India, save watch helplessly. With the Indian Mutiny starting up in 1857, the Russians would have an even easier time.

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Originally Posted by czarist

militarily they wouldve been steamrolled

Why? Russia was bankrupt and exhausted. I think there is a general overestimation of Russia in every time period. Their ability to defend their heartland was fairly impressive, due to distance, weather, and population, but the vulnerability of outlying areas an coastal regions was serious. Remember, this is the 1850s, before all those railroads were built, and before the military was reformed in any meaningful way. By this period the Russians were not capable of mobilizing as great a percentage of their population as were there rivals. And even the Ottomans were routinely able to defeat them when numbers were near equal, as they did at the beginning of the Crimean War and later in the 1877-78 war.

I'm not sure the Ottomans were in favor or peace - to them it seemed that all that effort, blood, and money had been expended for nothing, as nothing was really gained. It was the French defection that put an end to it.

[Grey Wolf]

Originally Posted by Melvin Loh

I read when I went to the National Army Museum in Chelsea that after Sebastopol's fall in 1856 Britain apparently wanted to go on fighting, by landing troops in the Baltic, but was persuaded to accept a peace by France and Turkey. Now, WI Britain had still decided to undertake naval and military action against Russia in a Baltic campaign ? How would that have gone down domestically and internationally ?

That's a very odd view of affairs

Britain wanted to continue the war primarily in the Baltic and had Sweden all signed up to join in. Britain was also willing to commit forces to Circassia in the Caucasus

France, the other driving force of the axis, wanted to focus on Poland

They simply could not come to a solution between them as to how to continue. At the same time, Austria delivered its ultimatum to Russia - make peace or they would join

Russia saw that peace made more sense than anything else, and Britain and France unable to agree a common strategy were both happy to make peace on this basis

Grey Wolf

[JHPier]

Originally Posted by Alasdair Czyrnyj

Well, if the Russians really wanted to have some fun, they could always send some of their forces into Afganistan, and maybe try for an invasion of India.

Well, they would hav had to roll over modern-day Kirgizstan, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan first, seeing as their empire had barely reached the north shore of the Aral Sea.

[wkwillis]

I don't know. A few less British regiments in India next year....And India would have colonized Australia. How many people were in Australia in 1858? A million? And how many people were in India after the war settled down?

[carlton_bach]

The problem is, there was no 'India' at the time. THe uprising had a shared immediate goal, but no common ground in terms of policy. Also, while the British troops in Northern India were hard pressed to beat the sepoys I don't think there's a chance in hell they'll hold out against the full force of British troops shippeed in.

Of course, a Russian column going into Afghanistan (it could have been arranged, albeit with some difficulty) could have upset things no end, but given the logistical realities, there is no way for Russia to sustain an invasion. It will give you huge numbners of eager Pushtun raiders streaming into Northern India, a very pissed-off Punjab, and British troops screaming for revenge. Might kick off a long, harsh war and an even longer period of cold relations between Britain and Russia, not to mention slaughter on an incredible scale in Northern India.

[Grey Wolf]

Look at the dates for the annexation of Kokhand (spelling is escaping what I think is called my memory), Khiva and Bokhara - these are either newly subjugated or still to be conquered at this period.

Even a heroic effort and an invasion of Afghanistan would not really threaten Britain as Northern India is not the same as the NW Frontier post-mutiny, and any incursion into Afghanistan is only going to be that, an incursion.

Anyway, if the war does continue into 1857 Russia is going to have enough problems DEFENDING itself in the Baltic, and one assumes against Austria, to even consider attacking somewhere in the middle of Asia in any kind of serious manner

Grey Wolf

[carlton_bach]

Originally Posted by Grey Wolf

Look at the dates for the annexation of Kokhand (spelling is escaping what I think is called my memory), Khiva and Bokhara - these are either newly subjugated or still to be conquered at this period.

Even a heroic effort and an invasion of Afghanistan would not really threaten Britain as Northern India is not the same as the NW Frontier post-mutiny, and any incursion into Afghanistan is only going to be that, an incursion.

Anyway, if the war does continue into 1857 Russia is going to have enough problems DEFENDING itself in the Baltic, and one assumes against Austria, to even consider attacking somewhere in the middle of Asia in any kind of serious manner

Grey Wolf

But a Russian incursion in Afghanistan, almost no matter how small, will create the right kind of response. The british government was almost paranoid about it. If a Russian column enters Afghanistan and the locals see there is no British response (in the middle of the Mutiny - how) that will lead to increased raiding. That will lead to reprisals. It would probably help British control of India in the long term as they are now 'protectors against the predatory Afghans' in a much more palpable way, but it would most likely divert troops and funds from Britain's war effort out of all proportions to the real magnitude of the threat.

Russia pulled that one a few more times later. All it took was a few Cossacks on the frontier and the Sirkar went into panic mode.

[JHPier]

A Russian incursion in Afghanistan is more likely to get the Afghans up in arms against the Russians than anything else, especially as that Russian army has just fought its way through the Khanates of Khiva and Bokhara, as it would have had to do in the 1850's. The Afghans just didn't like invaders, whatever their professed intentions or the direction they came from.

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Originally Posted by JHPier

A Russian incursion in Afghanistan is more likely to get the Afghans up in arms against the Russians than anything else, especially as that Russian army has just fought its way through the Khanates of Khiva and Bokhara, as it would have had to do in the 1850's. The Afghans just didn't like invaders, whatever their professed intentions or the direction they came from.

I agree. A Russian incursion into Afghanistan, besides being doomed to total destruction, would only play directly into the hands of the British. People play too many simplistic computer wargames. This is the 1850s - from where would the Russians launch this invasion?

[czarist]

i just want to say one thing.

tell that to napoleon or hitler. maybe a wargame approach to real life is underrated.

[Adam Parsons]

Originally Posted by Abdul Hadi Pasha

I agree. A Russian incursion into Afghanistan, besides being doomed to total destruction, would only play directly into the hands of the British. People play too many simplistic computer wargames. This is the 1850s - from where would the Russians launch this invasion?

Well, it was a little idea cribbed from a Flashman novel. Sorry.

[Chengar Qordath]

I imagine a Russian invasion would probably help the British some with putting down the Mutiny. A common enemy can do wonders for bringing people together.

[Steffen]

invasion in the baltics- if it´s strong enough, it threatens St Petersburg, but where would the Brits find enough soldiers for that?

To my best knowledge, many important russian families had baltic origins, so they would have been not quite amused about a british landing.

Does anyone know what the Prussian reaction would have been?

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Originally Posted by czarist

i just want to say one thing.

tell that to napoleon or hitler. maybe a wargame approach to real life is underrated.

There is a big difference between defending your heartland, where you have ready access to food, shelter, the support of the entire civilian population, and interior supply lines, and trying to launch an invasion across thousands of miles covered entirely by desert and mountains full of people who hate your guts.