Aztec Bows

Aztecs bows were wimpy. They were at most 5' tall and were not mentioned much in the descriptions of battles. The Aztecs favored the use of javelins and the atlatl.

Compare this to the bows used against Cabeza de Vaca and his companions in 1529 up in western Florida:
"Spanish crossbows failed to compete with Amerindian longbows that were six to seven feet long, thick as a man's arm, and very accurate at two hundred yards. Although Spanish armor had been effective against most arrows encountered on three continents, these Aute arrows penetrated six inches of wood, and even Spanish breast- and back plates. Ten Spaniards were killed while foraging. "We found their bodies pierced all the way through, although some wore good Armor.""
(taken from Warpaths by Ian K. Steele)

So what if we wave the counterfactual wand and provide the Aztecs with bows like those used by the Aute? While we are at it, let's give the same type of bow to the 16th century Maya and ignore all the butterflies flying around until about 1517.

1517 - Francisco Hernandez de Cordoba lands in the Yucatan with 110 men. He is killed near Champoton fighting the Maya. Survivors return to Cuba with reports of the Maya and of gold.

1518 - Juan de Grijalva leads 170 men in an expedition which runs into troubles near Tabasco and is forced back to Cuba.

1519 - Hernan Cortez moved up the coast of the Yucitan, took over Veracruz, and marched inland against the Tlaxcala with 400 men (leaving 100 men in Veracruz). The Tlaxcala defeat Cortez in a series of battles (incorporating the Aute style long bow). Cortez himself is killed and most of his men are also killed or captured (including Pedro de Alvarado). A handful of men, however, make it back to Veracruz and report the defeat. The Castilians in Veracruz build enough boats to transport themselves and 100 captives back to Cuba. The expedition is actually considered a success because the survivors have returned with a fair amount of loot.

1520 - Panfilo de Narvaez was already organizing an expedition with the purpose of stopping Cortez. That is no longer necessary but the expedition moves forward anyway. Narvaez lands near Zempoala and his forces are quickly overwhelmed and pushed back. Panfilo de Narvaez takes an arrow in the neck and dies (in OTL Narvaez was they guy who was supposed to stop Cortez and he is also the guy who later lead a disastrous expedition in Florida - I could not resist having him foiled by the Aute bow in this TL as well).
Bernal Diaz survives, he is a veteran of all four expeditions and now believes that marching inland is a strategy for defeat. He assumes command of the remaining forces and establishes good fortifications in Veracruz. The Spanish are able to stay on the mainland there.

1522 - Bernal Diaz is appointed governor of Veracruz and surrounding areas. He is considered to be insufficiently aggressive, but he forms alliances with local tribes and is able to trade for gold and slaves . . . and makes huge profits.

1524 - Francisco Pizarro leads his first expedition into South America but is forced back by poor weather etc (same as OTL).

1525 - Bernal Diaz forms an alliance with Montozuma against the Tlaxcala. The Tlaxcal are one of the few tribes to make use of good defensive walls, but Spanish cannon and Aztec armies provide a victory against these long-time enemies of the Aztec. During this campaign smallpox and typhus is loosed upon the land (only 4 years later than OTL).

1526 - Pizarro is unable to convince Pedrarias Davila to allow a second expedition into South America (he barley go permission OTL, but without a successful Cortez to serve as an example, Davila decides against Pizarros at this point).

1527 - Pedro de los Rios becomes the new Governor of Castilla de Oro and is more favorable to Pizarro. Pizarro's second expedition is launched. The Inca are discovered along with their textiles, ceramics, gold and silver. Pedro de los Rios believes the Atacames tribes are too hostile and Pizarro is too unreliable, so he recalls the expedition (same as OTL). When word reaches Pizarro, he draws a line in the sand and says "There lies Peru with its riches; Here, Panama and its poverty. Choose, each man, what best becomes a brave Castilian." Only two men cross the line; so Pizarro reluctantly returns to Panama. -- Although the Inca are not any different in This TL, the experiences and attitudes of the Spanish are altered enough that Pizarro is not able to find enough men to topple their empire.

Very interesting Pod! Strangely, for the Spanish, the most threating weapons weren't the ones used by the more "civilized" Indians, but the weapons of those peoples who were comparatibly less advanced. The conquerors suffer a grat deal of damage form Amerindian longbows in Florida, from poisonous arrous in the Caribbean Coast, and from "boleadoras" (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boleadoras) in the pampas and Southern Chile (these were very effective against mounted soldiers).

These weapons weren't probably very good for fighting the Incan or Mesoamerican armies (otherwise, they would have been adopted by them). But they turn out quite ussefull against XVI century's weapons. Strange, isn't it?

Why did the disease outbreaks happen later in this TL?

Probably because the would be Conquistadors were not able to spread it around like they did OTL because they were quickly forced to retreat and flee.

PS: 999 posts! Only one more to go!

Mitro said:

Why did the disease outbreaks happen later in this TL?

Click to expand...

In OTL the Smallpox outbreak was not started directly from Cortez’s expedition, but was started from Narvaez’s expedition. Narvaez ended up joining Cortez instead of stopping him, and one of the African slaves in his group is believed to be the primary vector for the outbreak.

In the alt timeline, Narvaez learns that Cortez has been defeated and therefore does not need to be stopped. Narvaez is all saddled up and ready to ride, so his expedition still sets forth. It is, however, delayed slightly and picks a different landing point (Cortez’s landing spot is believed to be too dangerous). The delay allows for the contaminated slave to not be part of the expedition and a different slave comes along. Even though this particular outbreak of smallpox is avoided, it is only a matter of time before the dread disease makes an appearance. Sieges of Tlaxcala seemed like a good place for this to happen.

Would just like to point out that aztec warfare was more focused around capturing sacrificial victims than killing opponents. Same for Many mesoamerican cultures. That said, continue when you can.

Why wouldnt the Incas get the bow? Perhaps, Aztec traders bring it with them to the Incas, and then the Incas copy the technology?

Atreus said:

Would just like to point out that aztec warfare was more focused around capturing sacrificial victims than killing opponents. Same for Many mesoamerican cultures. That said, continue when you can.

Click to expand...

I was going to skip over all the butterflies before 1517, but it's probably worth taking the blinders off for a moment to see what might change. If the central americans used Aute style bow then different groups would come to power and everything would be different by the time Columbus arrives - I'm just going to pretend that's not the case.

As you point out the Aztecs were very big on taking prisoners. An individual's status as a warrior could be determined by the number and quality of prisoners he takes. But a bow that can drive an arrow six inches into wood is meant to kill its target. And if you can kill from 200 yards away then it would be very difficult to determine who had exactly killed (or maimed) individual victims. So if this bow is used by the Aztecs then the Aztec culture has to be different. More killing, less prisoners. More stress on team victories, less stress on individual glory. This would also make things harder for the Spanish.

---

The Tlaxcal walls were 20 feet wide, 9 feet high, and topped with a wooden breastwork. These walls were not common in mesoamerica, but if Aute bows were introduced then maybe most towns would have walls like this or larger. The Spanish had a lot of experience defeating medieval style fortifications so they could still take towns . . . but it would be a bit slower and more difficult. Let's say that most major towns in TTL have Tlaxcal style walls.

---

Locke said:

Why wouldnt the Incas get the bow? Perhaps, Aztec traders bring it with them to the Incas, and then the Incas copy the technology?

Click to expand...

This is sort of a general fuzzy kind of POD and we could say the Inca have the good bows as well. But I want to limit it to Central America and see how things go.

I'm sure I remember reading somewhere about stun arrows with a hard ball on the tip rather than a point; how about the Aztec use these to stun their foes so they can be captured?

Why wouldnt the Incas get the bow? Perhaps, Aztec traders bring it with them to the Incas, and then the Incas copy the technology?

Click to expand...

There is little to indicate any trading relationship between the two. If fact little to indicate any contact at all, between them.

AirshipArmada said:

As you point out the Aztecs were very big on taking prisoners. An individual's status as a warrior could be determined by the number and quality of prisoners he takes. But a bow that can drive an arrow six inches into wood is meant to kill its target. And if you can kill from 200 yards away then it would be very difficult to determine who had exactly killed (or maimed) individual victims. So if this bow is used by the Aztecs then the Aztec culture has to be different. More killing, less prisoners. More stress on team victories, less stress on individual glory. This would also make things harder for the Spanish.

Click to expand...

Hmmm. This will of course be dificult. Perhaps having Apotzalco win might allow this? They were reviled in OTL for trying to wipe out Texcoco. This can be the first time they say, bring in barbarians from the north? Then we could have Tenochtitlan overthrow them with the help of some cities and in response to destroying Texcoco they destroy Apotzalco? This way we could have would want, but unfortunately this will cause butteflies. Lots of them.

Just my thoughts.

Locke said:

Why wouldnt the Incas get the bow? Perhaps, Aztec traders bring it with them to the Incas, and then the Incas copy the technology?

Click to expand...

The design of the bow is very simple but more depends on various know-how (what sort of wood to use etc.)

Locke said:

Why wouldnt the Incas get the bow? Perhaps, Aztec traders bring it with them to the Incas, and then the Incas copy the technology?

Click to expand...

There were no Aztec traders to the Incas. The Pochtli went only slightly outside the empire's borders.

Locke said:

Why wouldnt the Incas get the bow? Perhaps, Aztec traders bring it with them to the Incas, and then the Incas copy the technology?

Click to expand...

You need contact between the two cultures for this to happen. either civilizatio was known for long-distance explorations or trading missions. And for them to meet up, you would have to cross all of Central America, modern-Columbia, and probably part of Ecuador, then get the Inca to adopt the new weapon. And remember that this land is rugged, wild, and probably filled with nomad tribes and warring city-states. Personally, I doubt the two cultures even realized that the other one existed.