Stefan Dushan's Greater Serbia

It could have happend. The key point was not the battle of Kosovo, but the reign of Stefan Dushan 50 years earlier.

Dushan was a man of tremendous personal force, a great soldier and conqueror, but no more than a competent administrator. He lacked the spark of genius that might have turned the Serbian empire into a real state. Also, he died young -- 48 or 49 -- so his work was unfinished. OTL the Serb empire didn't quite collapse at his death, but it went into a protracted period of confusion, from which it was only just emerging a generation later when the Ottomans arrived to clobber it.

So: tweak Dushan so that he's a bit less fierce but a much better peacetime ruler, and let him live out his threescore and ten. That takes us into the 1370s, at which point the Ottomans are showing up in force. If they face a unified, well administered Serb state nearly twice the size of OTL... well, who can say. But TTL the Serbs could be a European counterpart to Safavid Persia -- that is, a long-term wall to Ottoman expansion. If they stay strong, they could stop the Ottomans from expanding beyond Greece and Bulgaria.

If they manage it, then all eastern European history jumps the rails bigtime. The Hapsburgs never get Hungary. Romania has a chance to become a real nation in the 16th or 17th century, not the 19th. (And possibly a mixed Orthodox-Protestant one.) Greater Serbia -- which here is very roughly OTL Yugoslavia, minus Slovenia and Croatia but including pieces of Romania, Bulgaria and Albania -- isn't a /big/ empire, but it'll enter the modern era as a respectable middleweight state, roughly filling the Austria-Hungary niche but further south and east.

It's a stretch... the medieval Slavic empires tended to be rickety. But maybe not quite impossible.

Thoughts?


Doug M.
 
I think it's a stretch in the way you've painted it.

I think the most successful possibility would be Dushan managing to absorb the Byzantine Empire and becoming Emperor. That would give him immense legitimacy, plus the superior administrative apparatus of Constantinople. Then he's got a large Balkan empire that is the Empire. The Ottomans will still be around as an Anatolian principality, but the Ottomans were a Balkan power until the 15th c, so without their Balkan base, they're one beylik amongst many and would probably fade from history.

It could have happend. The key point was not the battle of Kosovo, but the reign of Stefan Dushan 50 years earlier.

Dushan was a man of tremendous personal force, a great soldier and conqueror, but no more than a competent administrator. He lacked the spark of genius that might have turned the Serbian empire into a real state. Also, he died young -- 48 or 49 -- so his work was unfinished. OTL the Serb empire didn't quite collapse at his death, but it went into a protracted period of confusion, from which it was only just emerging a generation later when the Ottomans arrived to clobber it.

So: tweak Dushan so that he's a bit less fierce but a much better peacetime ruler, and let him live out his threescore and ten. That takes us into the 1370s, at which point the Ottomans are showing up in force. If they face a unified, well administered Serb state nearly twice the size of OTL... well, who can say. But TTL the Serbs could be a European counterpart to Safavid Persia -- that is, a long-term wall to Ottoman expansion. If they stay strong, they could stop the Ottomans from expanding beyond Greece and Bulgaria.

If they manage it, then all eastern European history jumps the rails bigtime. The Hapsburgs never get Hungary. Romania has a chance to become a real nation in the 16th or 17th century, not the 19th. (And possibly a mixed Orthodox-Protestant one.) Greater Serbia -- which here is very roughly OTL Yugoslavia, minus Slovenia and Croatia but including pieces of Romania, Bulgaria and Albania -- isn't a /big/ empire, but it'll enter the modern era as a respectable middleweight state, roughly filling the Austria-Hungary niche but further south and east.

It's a stretch... the medieval Slavic empires tended to be rickety. But maybe not quite impossible.

Thoughts?


Doug M.
 

Faeelin

Banned
I think the most successful possibility would be Dushan managing to absorb the Byzantine Empire and becoming Emperor. That would give him immense legitimacy, plus the superior administrative apparatus of Constantinople.

Wait, aren't you the one who's always going on and on about how after 1261 the Byzantines were an exhausted feudal state? What administrative apparatus did they have?

Why were the Slavic states so rickety anyway?
 
I don't think it was what it used to be, but they still had a more advanced system of government than medieval Serbia... plus as Emperor he would have control of the Patriarchate, which would be a major unifying factor for his domains.

Wait, aren't you the one who's always going on and on about how after 1261 the Byzantines were an exhausted feudal state? What administrative apparatus did they have?

Why were the Slavic states so rickety anyway?
 
Greater Serbia -- which here is very roughly OTL Yugoslavia, minus Slovenia and Croatia but including pieces of Romania, Bulgaria and Albania -- isn't a /big/ empire, but it'll enter the modern era as a respectable middleweight state, roughly filling the Austria-Hungary niche but further south and east.

Pieces of Romania? I don't see how, Dushan's realm never extended north of the Danube to my knowledge. If he or his descendants go for it, Serbia's going to have to fight Hungary (which was in personal union with Croatia, BTW). I wouldn't.
 
So: tweak Dushan so that he's a bit less fierce but a much better peacetime ruler, and let him live out his threescore and ten.
Instead of tweaking Dushan lets handwaveum into exsistance Alex Stefanoplis. A highly Compendent young Bureucrat in Constantinople.
Young Alex is rapidly climbing the Ladder, when his boss losses a Battle with another Admisistrator. Big Time.
Alex finds himself out, and has to flee Contantinople.
In 1335 Alex finds work in Durshans Court, where he rockets up to the top of the Heap. Becoming Durshans Left Hand Man.
[Right Hand would be Military second in Command]

?Could this do it?

When Durshan dies in 1355, Stefanopolis is strong enuff to Control Stefan Uroš V of Serbia [Stefan the Weak], and holds the empire together.
 
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