The Roman empire of Italian Nation.

I'm thinking, while i was writting my Carolingian timeline...but if the trone of the empire was staied in Italy?

If Bereguer or Guy of Spoleto were been able to take the trone?.

Now i ask, is it for you a timeline worthing to be scripeted?

ciao
 

Thande

Donor
Strangely enough, this happened in a recent Civ4 game I played (on one of the more realistic mods) where France reduces the HRE to Italy but it remains the HRE, with its capital in Rome. I like the notion.

You'd have to conquer Byzantine Italy and Sicily but what on earth would a united Italy be liked in the Middle Ages? Nowhere for France and Spain to fight over in the 16th century (and develop important new tactics in) for a start.

And what if Mussolini was right about the Renaissance only happening because Italy was a place of division and conflict, with new people and ideas always passing through?
 
Truly south Italy was not considered Italy until the XV° secntury.
Before the south was geografically in Italian lands but culturally and ethnichally was not italian lands.

I only have a truble to start to write this TL...How is posible that italian Lonbards/Frankish nobility not calls Otto of Germany?

Or may be Berenguer able to defeat the german?

I'll don't know.

For years, after unity, italian historians have considerated Berenguer our first king, but this is not true.

Berenguer is a lombard from a frankish mother and italian "race" will born only in XV° century.
May Berenguer win and create an empire centered in Italy(Capital will be surely Pavia) the "Italian People" may born before than in our TL...

Now i propose a start any suggestion is liked and waited:

The Holy Roman Empire of Italian Nation.
POD: The trone of the empire was not win by Otto of Saxony but by an italian noble, may be Berenguer or Guy de Spoleto.


887 AD: Charles the fat was deposed by the empire.
Odo of Paris become king of France, Arnolf of Carinthia become king of Germany, Berenguer of Friuli become king of Italy.
Unity of Carolingia empire is broken forever.

889 AD: The city of Forlì declares commonality, it is the first commonality in Italy(pay omage to king), Magyar armies enter in Italy and defeat italian soldiers, sack Reggio Emilia and retreat.

890 AD: Magyars activities intensified, they pass the Danube and occupy the old Pannonia.

892 AD: With the support of Berenguer, Guy of Spoleto, is elected Roman emperor.

905 AD: Berenguer is elected King of Italy for the second time, this time he elimates all oppositions in a bloody coup.

906 AD: Corrado I° of Franken becomes king of Germany.
 
Just another piece of my TL, i have only a dubt, how Berengar II can defeat Otto?




907 AD: Oleg of Kiev attack Costantinople, he was beaten but the empire start relationing with varagian peoples.

910 AD: Cluny founded

915 AD: Battle of Garigliano, a coalition of south italian prences lead by Pope John X, attack and defeat the saracens, Berenguer I° send knights from Tauscany and Spoleto(commanded by Albert I° of Spoleto)

919 AD: Henry I° crowned king of Germany.

923 AD: Battle of Soisson, Robert I of France is defeated and captured by the duke of Burgundy.

924 AD: Berenguer defeat Rudolph of Burgundy thanks to the Hungaryan mercenaries, he take Pavia and spared it from destruction.
Late in the year, he was saved by an assassination.

926 AD: Berengar I° dies, at him succeded by Hugues of Arles

933 AD: Rudolph of Burgundy unites again all Burgundy when he inherit the king of lower Burgundy.

936 AD: Otto of Saxony become King of Germany at Aachen.

937 AD: Otto is acclaimed Holy roman emperor in a diet at Mackdeburg, Italian king Hugues refuses to submit.

945 AD: Lothar II° of Arles is King of Italy after his father.

950 AD: Berengar II of Ivrea crowned, at Pavia, king of Italy, Otto didn’t recognize the king, and andavences in Italy.

951-953 AD: First italian expedition, Otto take Lombardy.

955 AD: Battle of Lechsfeld, Hungarians are stopped by Otto I°

962 AD: King Otto defeated by Berengar while he is tempting to take San Leo fortress, cities and duchies acknowledge Berengar as king of Italy.
Otto try again to defeat italians but Hungarian invasions force him to return in Germany.
He leaves the crown of Emperor and remain king of Germany(he was the first king).

963 AD: Polony become vassal of Germany when king Mieszko is defeated(Due lack of strongholds, Miesko is unable to dfefend efficacely his kingdom)

966 AD: Corrado, son of Berengar I°, is crowned at Pavia, king of “Totius Italiae”
In Poland, Mieszko converts himself and his dukedom to christianity.
 
No more but a again a little:

967 AD: Kievan Russ, capture Itil, capital of the Kazhare Khanate, ending the powerfull jewish state.

973 AD: Otto II, crowned King of Germany, Poland, he recives the oath of Duke Bolesval II° of Bohemia.

974 AD: For the first time italian kings meddle in Papal politics, when Corrado remove from the office Boniface VII°, supposed has kill Benedict VI°, Boniface refuses to leave and call the kingdom at the war.

974-983 AD: The War of the Popes, Corrado of Italy declares Pope Benedict VII of Counts of Tusculum and opposed him to Boniface.
After a bitter war made by sieges and sacks, Boniface was captured and put to death, but Benedict dies the same year, Peter of Pavia become Pope with the name of John XIV°, he ceded the Marches of Romagna to the kingdom but recive the retreat of all italian armies from Latium.

982 AD: Erik the red, a viking explorer descovers Greenland and maybe also land more west.

983 AD: Otto II: died he was succede by his young son Otto III°, with the regency of his wise the greek Theophane.
 
Now until 1000 AD:

982 AD: Erik the red, a viking explorer descovers Greenland and maybe also land more west.
In the battle of Stilo, fougth against sacens of southern italy, Corrado of Italy was defeated and his own life was in ranger.

983 AD: Otto II: died he was succede by his young son Otto III°, with the regency of his wise the greek Theophane.

987 AD: At the death of Ludwig V° of France, the duke of Paris, Hugh Capet become crowned king.

993 AD: Boleaslav II° duke of Poland, favorite by Otto III° minor age, proclaims himself King of Poland and break away from empire.

996 AD; Otto crowned by Archibishop of Mackleburg, now become metropolite of all Germany.

999 AD: Dukedom of Silesia become part of Kingdom of Poland, Otto is unable to intervene because he is involved in Mackleburg archibishopal elections.

1000 AD: Corrado of Italy dies, Arduino of Ivrea was crowned King of Italy at Pavia.
 
Holy Crap! That's what I'm thinking some time before. But then it's Rennaisance...
If you have some suggestions...tell me without fear.

Now until 1030 or something about...
P.S: I know that is not a beauftifull reading, but my english is not so good as i wish, so i make little periods...

ciao

1000 AD: Corrado of Italy dies, Arduino of Ivrea was crowned King of Italy at Pavia.
25 Dec. Stephan of Hungary crowned king of Hungarian people.
Otto III° King of Germany come to Rome in Pilgrimage, treaty of Orbetello, German and Italian kindoms regnoze themselves.

1002 AD: Otto III° died, Henry II succedes him, reconfirmation of Orbetello Treaty.
Arduino, king of Italy, for the first time give power sto commonality governments to stop aristocracy power.

1003 AD: Boleaslav of Poland becomes duke of Bohemia and Moravia, adding those land sto his growing kingdom.
Pisa rebel agaist the comes of Lucca, winning the war, the consuls forced Arduin to ecoze the fait accomplie, but swear fidelty to King of Italy.

1005 AD: Henry II° intervention, Boleslav is defeated, He ceded the trone of Bohemia to Jaromir I°
Poemerania revolts against Meckleburg archibishop, Poland intervenes, the same does Germany, briefs war for Pomerania, Henry retreats and leave the region to Poland.

1012 AD: Aethelred of Bretain pays tributes to Danes, creating the Danesold.

1013 AD: King Swen of Danemark lands in England, defeats Aethelred and become King of Danemark and England.
He recive support from France and Germany.

1016 AD: First Norman knights arrive in South Italy, some of them fight for Arduin against central Italian nobles.
Arduin incorage them to attack Bizantine italy.

1017 AD: Melus of Bari, with support of Normans and Italian knights revolt against Bizantines, he win three battles.
With the help of Italian King and Genoa, Pisa conquers Sardinia(Cutting it half with Genoa).

1019 AD: Basil II of Bysantium conquers Bulgaria, them sends general Georges Maniakes to fight Italians and rebels.
Pisa defeating an arabian fleet in Tyrrenum sea, becomes the most powerfull fleet.

1020 AD: Arduin enter South Italy at the head of italian army to fight alongside Melus and Normans, official state of war between Italy and Bizantium.
First naval victory of italian navy, Pisan fleet defeats a greeak one at lange of Reggio Calabria.

1024 AD: Conraa II° of Salian dinasty, become king of Germany.
 
Now the Empire of Italian Nation !!!! evviva!!!



1025 AD: Basil II° of Bizantine empire dies, his brother, Costantine, succedes him as Costantine VIII°

1028 AD: To prevent other secession, as for Poland, Conrad and later Henry II° of Salian dinasty start to infeudate Bishops, the first Bishop is Archibishop of Meckleburg who recive all Meckeleburg province.

1031 AD : Maniakes at the head of an Harmy defeat Arduin and occupy Abulia, that was lost previous year.
Arduin, now 80 years old dies without heirs.

1031-1034 AD: Brief anarchy period, fight between nobles families to the trone of Italy, Henry II° of Germany intervenes, capture Pavia and puts on trone Boniface of Tuscany.

1035 AD: Boniface returns in south Italy and continue the struggle against Maniakes, he lost many positions and the front returns as in 1030.

1037 AD: Truce between Lombards(italians)-Normans and Bizantines, Maniakes begins campaign in Sicily against Arabs with successes.

1039 AD: Henry III° becomes King of Germany and Burgundy, Bretislav I° of Boehmia attacks at surprise Poland.

1041 AD: Michel V° becomes Emperor of Bysantium.

1042 AD: When he finds a complot to kill him, Maniakes revolts agaist Costantine IX° of Bysantium, changin’ all his previous poltics
He ask support of Normans and Italians against empire armies.

1042-1045 AD: Second Italian Bizantine war, Maniakes is convinced by Boniface to remain in Italy and accep the crown of Sicily, Normans enter at Taranto.

1047 AD: Peace between Boniface King of Italy, Georges Duke of Sicily, and William Duke of Abulia and Bysantine emperor Roman IV Diogenes.

1050 AD: Proclamation of Roman empire of Italian nation.
Boniface is Crowned first emperor, Georges Maniakes becomes King of Sicily, William Hauteville King of Naples.
 
Actually IOTL he was Boniface of Canossa, Marquis of Tuscany and Duke of Spoleto. And if you have not butterflied away my favoured character in the late Middle Age, the Great Countess she'll become empress...

All hail Mathilda!
 
Oh no...i chosed Boniface for three reasons

I) he was the most powerfull italian noble in such years
II) He was father to Mathilda...so she CAN become empress
III) beacuse the adoptive son of Mathilda is Guido Guerra, founder of Guidi family...my favourite medieval family...
 
now a new piece:

1052 AD: The Pope questions William Trone, William(altrhoug Boniface was not with him) invade Latium.

1053 AD: At the battle of Civitate, Leo IX° was defeated by Normans marchino toward Rome.

1054 AD: Pope Leo IX° dies at Roma, William sieges the city.(in this TL Pope was not so powerfull so no Schism between Eastern and western Cattholic Church…for now)

1056 AD: Henry IV° King of Germany, the Bischop-count use extended in south Germany and Burgundy.
Peace between Norman king and the Pope thanks to efforts of Emperor Boniface I°

1057 AD: Boniface III° dies in haunt accident, his son Frederick become King of Lombardy and Emperor of Italy, but dies sooner.
Mathild, his latest dougther become empress with the name of Mathilda Ia
1059 AD: Mathilde, who is very pious, impose to Papacy election of Popes only by the college of Cardinals(laterna Council).
Some declare it non valid becuse a woman leads it.
Robert the Guiscard become King of Naples, Bizantine soldiers landed in south Iyaly and renew the war.

1060 AD: Anselmo of Lucca, first consuler of Mathilda write “The Bride of God”, in whic portrait his empress as a new Madonna and mather of the Church.

1061 AD: Bizantine army take Taranto.

1062 AD: Byzantines take Messina isolate kingdom of Sicily from Naples and Italy.
Mathilda declared war on Byzantium.

1064 AD: First attacks of Seljuck Turks in Anatolia.

1066 AD: Battle of Hstings, duke of Normady, William the bastard become king of England, Battle of Tagliacozzo, Bizantine army routed and Taranto take back from them.

1067 AD: De facto peace between Italy and Byzantium, Venice resufe to join in Empire as Vassal of Mathilde.
Pisa is charged to built a fleet for invasion of Epiros.
 
Mathilda is a fascinating persona, really outstanding.
And the tragedy is that the Canossa line ended with her

I belive she cannot, for her own life, create a stable dinasty.

However she was the champion of the feudal forces fighting against the new forces of Commonalities.
Think that Mantova, pratically the Canossa capital, was out of her dominions for 24 years and opened the door only to recive her while she was dieing.
 
I belive she cannot, for her own life, create a stable dinasty.

However she was the champion of the feudal forces fighting against the new forces of Commonalities.
Think that Mantova, pratically the Canossa capital, was out of her dominions for 24 years and opened the door only to recive her while she was dieing.
Was she really? Mathilda primarily fought against what she perceived an encroachment of the emperor on traditional rights, both of feudataries and church. From this POV she might be called a champion of feudalism.
She was however able to keep up the fight against her cousin the emperor for a couple of decades, and her relations with the commonalities where not so desperate, actually. It might be arguable that the emperor struggled to directly appoint bishops (which was borne more from the need of ensuring the monetary benefits accruing from such appointments, rather than by the emperor's wish to confirm an imperial prerogative), and that these imperial bishops were not loved as a rule. There is also the coming into being of movements for a reformation of church and empire (chief among them the Pataria, which - not unsurprisingly - was quite strong in traditional Mathildan fiefholds such as Florence, Brescia, Modena, Pisa). IMHO, there was just a lil nudge to bring together an alliance of Mathilda with the commonalities, and maybe what was missing was simply a stable dinasty. If her father had not died so early (I notice that you've still dieing in a hunting accident, which is widely believed to have been arranged by the emperor), or if her brother survives....I also believe that if she had been able to get some children out of her marriage to Godfrey the Hunchback it would be enough
 
OT: I have not forgot, only i have some to do...

To answer you: She and emperor are the past, new commonalities power rising are the future(at least for Italy).
However she was an impressive figure in Italian(and European) history, but can her dinasty be great if she never take the power?
Or how many times happened in history a great personalities change much?

I promise to continue the TL with Integration Of Meloria and one or two new ideas.
 
Now until the 1st Crusade ciao



1067 AD: De facto peace between Italy and Byzantium, Venice resufe to join in Empire as Vassal of Mathilde.
Pisa is charged to built a fleet for invasion of Epiros.

1071 AD: Bari, last bizantine city in Italy falls.
Battle of Mazikert (the terribile day) Bizantines overouted in all Minor Asia, Alp Arslan(The Valian Leon) marches at Nikeia.

1074 AD: Pandulf IV° of Benevento rebel against Tancred of Naples and is defeated at Montesarchio, all Southern Italy under Norman control.

1075 AD: Henrui IV° defats Saxon Nobles and subjugates them, prelude to Italian wars.
Gregory VII° in a council, forbids investitures, Henry IV° declares that the Pope is the Bishop of the empress, and have not authority in Germany.
Mathilda(from the voice of Anselmo of Lucca) calls the Pope, prince of the bishops, head of the Church.

1076 AD: German Archibishop of Mackeleburg and other high clergy men in Germany retire their alliuance to the Pope.
Pope excomunicates German Bishops and German King.

1077 AD: King of Germany goes to Canossa(main catle of Italian Empress) to ask Pope rimoves excomunication.
Gregory VII accept but is a German Trick and when he returns in Germany continues to ignore the Pope orders.

1081 AD: Alexios Comnenus becomes emperor of Byzantium.
Tancred of Naples attacks the Byzantine emperor and defat him at Dyrrachium in Albania.

1082 AD: Empress Mathilda cannot supports Tancred because Henry IV besieges Rome and conquers the city.

1083 AD: After a brief counteroffensive Pope Gregory VII is sieged in Castel SantAngelo.

1084 AD: Henty IV acclaimed Emperor of the Germans, Robert the Guiscard moves to Rome to saves the Pope, but he sacks the city when commonality soldiers resist him.

1085 AD: Gregory VII dies, Victor III° elevated to Papacy.

1088 AD: Tuscanian city of Pisa(with belssing of Pope and Empress) attacks and sacks Tunisi and El Mehedia, Pisa create a Protectorate over Tunisi.

1091 AD: Pecheneges advance to Costantinople, with the help of Norman gold, Alexius I° defeats them.

1095 AD: Alexius ask mercenaries to Urban II° Pope, Urban calls for a armed pilgrimage to liberate Holy Land.

1097 AD: When armed pilgimage comes to Costantinople little fights erupt between normans and byzantines.

1099 AD: Siege of Jerusalem, that will end in a bloodbath when crusaders attack and kill any Muslim in the city.

1100 AD: Baldwin of Flandren becomes King of Jerusalem
 
I wish continue this one!!!

I have forgot to have started it.

Have you enjoy it since now?

Thanks
 
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