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  #21  
Old September 17th, 2007, 02:17 PM
MerryPrankster MerryPrankster is online now
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Could the Nazi empire crack up after Hitler's death just like Alexander's did?
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  #22  
Old September 17th, 2007, 02:24 PM
Tolkiene Tolkiene is offline
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Definitely it could.

One scenario: Burgundy becomes an SS fiefdom, ruled by Léon Degrelle with his puppet master Karl Wolff (or Himmler, if he does not conquer the East).

Bormann and Goebbels rule the Reich proper (let's say Germany plus the territories in Poland, Austria, Sudetenland, and the Reichs Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia), with either Goering or Heinz Hitler as puppet Fuehrer.

The eastern Lebensraum (if it is conquered, let's' just assume it is) either goes to the SS under whoever is Reichsfuehrer SS or is divided amongst the Gauleiters (as I understand, Erich Koch ruled to all intents and purposes as a little viceroy in the Ukraine) and the SS commanders (examples would be Prützmann and von dem Bach-Zelewski).

Gauleiter Terboven turns his Reichskommissariat in Norway into his own little kingdom. As for Northern France (Best recommended annexation of France north of the Loire in one of his many essays directed to Himmler, and Hitler's tabletalk also implied similar ideas) it is either ruled by Best (he wanted to become Governor-General of it and Himmler liked him), Heydrich (according to some books, though I have no real confirmation, it was considered to appoint him proconsul of the area due to his success in Bohemia-Moravia) or the local Wehrmacht commanders.
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  #23  
Old September 18th, 2007, 09:13 PM
Wendell Wendell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tolkiene View Post
Definitely it could.

One scenario: Burgundy becomes an SS fiefdom, ruled by Léon Degrelle with his puppet master Karl Wolff (or Himmler, if he does not conquer the East).

Bormann and Goebbels rule the Reich proper (let's say Germany plus the territories in Poland, Austria, Sudetenland, and the Reichs Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia), with either Goering or Heinz Hitler as puppet Fuehrer.

The eastern Lebensraum (if it is conquered, let's' just assume it is) either goes to the SS under whoever is Reichsfuehrer SS or is divided amongst the Gauleiters (as I understand, Erich Koch ruled to all intents and purposes as a little viceroy in the Ukraine) and the SS commanders (examples would be Prützmann and von dem Bach-Zelewski).

Gauleiter Terboven turns his Reichskommissariat in Norway into his own little kingdom. As for Northern France (Best recommended annexation of France north of the Loire in one of his many essays directed to Himmler, and Hitler's tabletalk also implied similar ideas) it is either ruled by Best (he wanted to become Governor-General of it and Himmler liked him), Heydrich (according to some books, though I have no real confirmation, it was considered to appoint him proconsul of the area due to his success in Bohemia-Moravia) or the local Wehrmacht commanders.
Were this to happen, I'd expect the Reichskommissariat Ostland to go with Germany itself.
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  #24  
Old September 18th, 2007, 09:32 PM
Major Major Major Major is online now
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Gotengau

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Originally Posted by Tolkiene View Post
Definitely it could.

One scenario: Burgundy becomes an SS fiefdom, ruled by Léon Degrelle with his puppet master Karl Wolff (or Himmler, if he does not conquer the East).

Bormann and Goebbels rule the Reich proper (let's say Germany plus the territories in Poland, Austria, Sudetenland, and the Reichs Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia), with either Goering or Heinz Hitler as puppet Fuehrer.

The eastern Lebensraum (if it is conquered, let's' just assume it is) either goes to the SS under whoever is Reichsfuehrer SS or is divided amongst the Gauleiters (as I understand, Erich Koch ruled to all intents and purposes as a little viceroy in the Ukraine) and the SS commanders (examples would be Prützmann and von dem Bach-Zelewski).

Gauleiter Terboven turns his Reichskommissariat in Norway into his own little kingdom. As for Northern France (Best recommended annexation of France north of the Loire in one of his many essays directed to Himmler, and Hitler's tabletalk also implied similar ideas) it is either ruled by Best (he wanted to become Governor-General of it and Himmler liked him), Heydrich (according to some books, though I have no real confirmation, it was considered to appoint him proconsul of the area due to his success in Bohemia-Moravia) or the local Wehrmacht commanders.
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Were this to happen, I'd expect the Reichskommissariat Ostland to go with Germany itself.

According to Heather Pringle [The Master Plan: Himmler's Scholars and the Holocaust (2006)], Himmler also planned to set up another SS statelet in Ukraine and the Crimea, to be called the "Gotengau" ["Goth District"], since that was the ancient homeland of the Gothic Empire. Fancy there being two SS countries . . .
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  #25  
Old September 18th, 2007, 09:35 PM
Wendell Wendell is offline
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According to Heather Pringle [The Master Plan: Himmler's Scholars and the Holocaust (2006)], Himmler also planned to set up another SS statelet in Ukraine and the Crimea, to be called the "Gotengau" ["Goth District"], since that was the ancient homeland of the Gothic Empire. Fancy there being two SS countries . . .
That's certainly interesting. So, Gotengau would replace Reichskommissariat Ukraine?
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  #26  
Old September 18th, 2007, 11:55 PM
Major Major Major Major is online now
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According to Heather Pringle [The Master Plan: Himmler's Scholars and the Holocaust (2006)], Himmler also planned to set up another SS statelet in Ukraine and the Crimea, to be called the "Gotengau" ["Goth District"], since that was the ancient homeland of the Gothic Empire. Fancy there being two SS countries . . .
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That's certainly interesting. So, Gotengau would replace Reichskommissariat Ukraine?
Perhaps. The map Pringle reprints shows it occupying part of Ukraine. but by no means all of it.
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  #27  
Old September 19th, 2007, 12:10 PM
Tolkiene Tolkiene is offline
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According to my understanding, the Gotengau was supposed to be the new home of the South Tyroleans.

That is stated in Hitler's Tabletalk and Jochen von Lang's Karl Wolff biography. The Gotengau would encompass the Ukraine. But the resettlement efforts, as defined in Generalplan Ost, were supposed to be directed by the SS -- that was why Himmler was appointed Reichkommissar für die Festigung Deutschen Volkstums, with the plans being drafted by that office and the RSHA.

But, of course, it all depends. The Gauleiters had a great deal of autonomy in their functions as Reichskommissars in Russia. One drastic example was the rule of Erich Koch in the Ukraine, but also Wilhelm Kube, General Commissar for Belarus -- both Bormann appointees, though Kube was originally an enemy of Bormann, as Kube disliked Bormann's father-in-law Walter Buch. But then, of course, power politics might dictate changes.
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  #28  
Old September 21st, 2007, 10:40 PM
Max Sinister Max Sinister is offline
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Gotengau = Crimea, not Ukraine. (Of course, later the nazis might decide to enlarge it.)

And it's new to me that Himmler wanted to make it an SS country. It'd become a Reichsgau of Germany. (He might've had secret plans, though.)
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  #29  
Old September 21st, 2007, 11:53 PM
Atreus Atreus is offline
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I would just like to point out that Hitler actually naming a successor is unlikely. Rulers like him, even if not convinced that they are invincible, do not name successors beacuse they fear that would mean partisans of that successor would try to kill them (or they just believe that they will never die). Examples include Alexander the Great, whose empire quickly fragmented as his generals attempted to subvert the others. Nazi germany may go the same way.
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  #30  
Old September 23rd, 2007, 03:23 PM
Tolkiene Tolkiene is offline
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"I would just like to point out that Hitler actually naming a successor is unlikely. Rulers like him, even if not convinced that they are invincible, do not name successors beacuse they fear that would mean partisans of that successor would try to kill them (or they just believe that they will never die)."

Hitler in fact did name a successor. Following the purge of the SA leadership and several right-wing conservative enemies of the regime (between 30 June and 2 July 1934), in a secret decree Hitler named Goering his official successor in all offices of State, Party and Wehrmacht.

That decree was made public in his address to the Reichstag on 1 September 1939 when he announced the decision to invade Poland and again reaffirmed after Hess' flight to England (contrary to popular belief, Hess was never in line for succession. His title of Deputy Fuehrer did not mean what it seemed to imply).
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  #31  
Old September 23rd, 2007, 04:59 PM
Chengar Qordath Chengar Qordath is offline
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Originally Posted by Atreus View Post
I would just like to point out that Hitler actually naming a successor is unlikely. Rulers like him, even if not convinced that they are invincible, do not name successors beacuse they fear that would mean partisans of that successor would try to kill them (or they just believe that they will never die). Examples include Alexander the Great, whose empire quickly fragmented as his generals attempted to subvert the others. Nazi germany may go the same way.
As I recall Alexander the Great not naming a successor had more to do with the fact that he had unexpectedly died in his 30's than any fear he might be overthrown; I imagine the general assumption was that he would live another 30 years or so and his son would take over after him.
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