Bavarian Raven
Banned
...what would have happened if after the fall of Norway the Swedish through their lot in with Germany? How could this affect the outcome of world war two?
Sweden in World War Two...
- Thread starter Bavarian Raven
- Start date
Well, they had very little to add militarily, starting the war far behind the curve of the military state of the art, and already most of their industrial output was going to Germany. There were also sadly a good number of Swedish men volunteering for the Waffen-SS... I don't see how much can change, except making things harder for Norway's Milorg. Perhaps even Sweden occupies Norway, freeing up the several hundred thousand Nazis stationed there. I have to think in this scenario though Churchill will get his Norwegian front - which will bring the Germans back.
I've been looking around for numbers on Swedish military strength during WWII, early in 1940 the Swedish military went from 100 000 to 320 000.
If Sweden threw their lot it with the Nazis in an alliance there is a a chance that Swedish military would gradually replace some of the German forces in Norway and Denmark. That would allow Germany to move those forces to other places.
Seeing as Germany wasn't at war with Soviet at the time Sweden would probably refrain from sending in troops into Finland. I'm not sure if those additional soldiers would change the outcome of the war.
A more important part of Sweden joining the Axis would be Swedish ore. During the OTL Sweden supplied more then 60% of the ore Germany imported, here it might be even more. The additional resources will probably prove more important to the Nazi war machine then the Swedish military.
Denmark and Norway might prefer Swedish troops in the occupation forces instead of the Germans. They won't be happy about it, especially not Norway who had been independent from Sweden for less then thirty-five years, but probably less so then if it had been the Germans. Better the evil you know to the evil you don't or some such.
As I said, the Swedish military probably won't play a large role, but the Swedish ore and industry might. If Germany and Sweden are closely allied some of the production might be relocated to Sweden so that Germany might concentrate their industry on other more important projects.
Operation Barbarossa probably will start the same as in OTL, but there is a chance Swedish soldiers might participate in the attack by going through Finland. I doubt the Swedes would have any impact on the larger picture, even if they most assuredly would be equipped for winter warfare.
Who knows, the additional soldiers that in OTL had been busy in Denmark and Norway, together with additional industry in Sweden and some Swedish soldiers, might, and I say only might, be able to capture Moscow.
If they are able to hold and keep it is another matter entirely. At the worst Sweden joining the Nazis would stave off their defeat a few weeks, at best it might be the thing to tip the scales in their favor.
But I seriously doubt that.
If Sweden threw their lot it with the Nazis in an alliance there is a a chance that Swedish military would gradually replace some of the German forces in Norway and Denmark. That would allow Germany to move those forces to other places.
Seeing as Germany wasn't at war with Soviet at the time Sweden would probably refrain from sending in troops into Finland. I'm not sure if those additional soldiers would change the outcome of the war.
A more important part of Sweden joining the Axis would be Swedish ore. During the OTL Sweden supplied more then 60% of the ore Germany imported, here it might be even more. The additional resources will probably prove more important to the Nazi war machine then the Swedish military.
Denmark and Norway might prefer Swedish troops in the occupation forces instead of the Germans. They won't be happy about it, especially not Norway who had been independent from Sweden for less then thirty-five years, but probably less so then if it had been the Germans. Better the evil you know to the evil you don't or some such.
As I said, the Swedish military probably won't play a large role, but the Swedish ore and industry might. If Germany and Sweden are closely allied some of the production might be relocated to Sweden so that Germany might concentrate their industry on other more important projects.
Operation Barbarossa probably will start the same as in OTL, but there is a chance Swedish soldiers might participate in the attack by going through Finland. I doubt the Swedes would have any impact on the larger picture, even if they most assuredly would be equipped for winter warfare.
Who knows, the additional soldiers that in OTL had been busy in Denmark and Norway, together with additional industry in Sweden and some Swedish soldiers, might, and I say only might, be able to capture Moscow.
If they are able to hold and keep it is another matter entirely. At the worst Sweden joining the Nazis would stave off their defeat a few weeks, at best it might be the thing to tip the scales in their favor.
But I seriously doubt that.
In OTL the German's weren't. While the Swedes aren't exactly masters of winter war (that title goes to Finland) the Swedes know what to do so they don't freeze to dead.
Intruiging to say the least...
I could definately see a lot of Swedes fighting in Finland against the USSR in the Continuation War.
Also as some have noted Swedes might have taken over occupation and garrison duty in Norway and Denmark. There would also likely be a division or 2 on the eastern front as well as maybe a few units in France or Italy to fight the Western allies.
does anyone think Sweden might have tried to change sides in 1943 or 1944 as soon as it became clear which way the wind was blowing?
I could definately see a lot of Swedes fighting in Finland against the USSR in the Continuation War.
Also as some have noted Swedes might have taken over occupation and garrison duty in Norway and Denmark. There would also likely be a division or 2 on the eastern front as well as maybe a few units in France or Italy to fight the Western allies.
does anyone think Sweden might have tried to change sides in 1943 or 1944 as soon as it became clear which way the wind was blowing?
Quite possibly.
Considering the Nazi's ability to get large numbers of their allies killed for no good reason other than to satisfy Hitler's insane schemes the Swedes could quite diffinately switch sides as soon as it became obvious that the Axis was going to lose.
They might well be able to make a good deal too if they were garrisoning Norway. The Germans lose an ally, (maybe two if Finland switches side at the same time), an Allied country is libirated and the Anglo-American air forces get bases on Germany's Northern Flank.
That depends on how Sweden came to join the Axis and what exactly they did in the war. If it was reluctantly, and that they only deployed troops in Denmark, Norway and Finland they might surrender and slowly pull back their troops. If they joined freely and fought on the western front it might be more problematic.
The consequences after the war might also be different IIRC Sweden was one of the few nation that still had a fully functional industry and it helped during the rebuilding of Europe. It was one of the reasons Sweden became a welfare state.
If Sweden's infrastructure was destroyed like in Germany the politics will much different. Sweden would be more afraid of Big Red to the east, and with their neutrality in shambles there is a chance they would join NATO just to be on the safe side and keep the Russians out. Sweden would also live with the stigma that they aided the Nazi's, if they took part of the Holocaust I can't even begin to guess.
in 1941 and 1942 Sweden sent back all Norwegians or German deserters which tryied to cross the border
starting in 1943 when it began to seem that Germany would lose Sweden began Enforceing strict nuetrality officially,
but set up Police camps[clandestine Boot Camp] to train Nowegian Soldiers to take over after the Germans in Norway surrendered.
In 1939 during the winter war, Sweden came within days of entering the war on Finlands side.
A Sweden allied with the Axis would join the Finland Winter War II. but would mainly be used to attack Leningrad like the Finn's.
Course this would free up several divisions of Germans.
this may allow them to claim Co bilegent status like Finland had.
TotrueTufaar
Banned
I don't believe the Finns ever did attack Leningrad. The Swedes might be able to put a bit of pressure on them to make a go for old Swedish territory. And I'm sure that the Swedish would be able to garner Estonian support, and perhaps prevent the Germans from completely annexing the Baltic states.
Lots of myths in this thread, unfortunately.
In April 1940, Sweden raised about 405 000 men and an additional 60 000 men in the home guard. By 1945, this was 601 000 plus about 120 000 in the home guard.
Sweden never produced for Germany, rather it was the other way around with us buying steel, artillery, planes, small arms, anti-aircraft guns, ships and vehicles from Germany and Italy. The only industrial produce of Sweden the Germans wanted was ball bearings from SKF.
Talking realistically, it would take an invasion from the western allies to push Sweden to the German side. After Norway and Denmark, Germany was universally loathed in Sweden (only some of the top army command, industrial elite and academic elite were German-friendly, but they became fewer and fewer).
Occupying northen Norway, keeping the Soviet subs out of the Baltic and fighting with the Finns against the Soviets would be the most likely Swedish tasks in the war. Perhaps the Murmansk railroad would be cut and Murmansk itself fall to the Germans (with the railroads through Sweden, their reinforcement and resupply possibilities are much better). Perhaps five or six Swedish divisions and an armoured brigade together with the twelve Finnish divisions, cavalry brigade and armoured division holding Far Karelia and striking south from Svir to help a German offensive against Tikhvin to ensure that Leningrad was completely surrounded.
In April 1940, Sweden raised about 405 000 men and an additional 60 000 men in the home guard. By 1945, this was 601 000 plus about 120 000 in the home guard.
Sweden never produced for Germany, rather it was the other way around with us buying steel, artillery, planes, small arms, anti-aircraft guns, ships and vehicles from Germany and Italy. The only industrial produce of Sweden the Germans wanted was ball bearings from SKF.
Talking realistically, it would take an invasion from the western allies to push Sweden to the German side. After Norway and Denmark, Germany was universally loathed in Sweden (only some of the top army command, industrial elite and academic elite were German-friendly, but they became fewer and fewer).
Occupying northen Norway, keeping the Soviet subs out of the Baltic and fighting with the Finns against the Soviets would be the most likely Swedish tasks in the war. Perhaps the Murmansk railroad would be cut and Murmansk itself fall to the Germans (with the railroads through Sweden, their reinforcement and resupply possibilities are much better). Perhaps five or six Swedish divisions and an armoured brigade together with the twelve Finnish divisions, cavalry brigade and armoured division holding Far Karelia and striking south from Svir to help a German offensive against Tikhvin to ensure that Leningrad was completely surrounded.
No, that happened in a few isolated cases in 1940 and was never an official policy. In 1941 there were 60 000 Norweigan refugees in Sweden.
Max Sinister
Banned
Not very well. In the winter, they often were fighting in summer uniforms, and had tight boots with nailed soles. The Red Army used boots one size too big in winter - so the soldiers could put isolating stuff in it.
Without a doubt an occupation of Norway and Denmark by Swedish troops would have been far less brutal than by the Germans. However, I do not believe that the Swedish Military would have the military resorces to defend Norway against an invasion by Great Britain to the same extent that the Germans did. This would require the stationing of Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine units in Norway and probably some ground forces.
Well Britain loses the intelligence from the Swedish Coast Guard that told them when German Ships left port OTL.
Three German Destroyers are not "accidentally destroyed" by Swedish mines OTL.
Thats the Naval Ledger.
Land wise, an additional 100,000 troops could deliver Murmansk or Leningrad to the Axis. Loss of either would hamstring the Soviets.
One of the two German divisions occupying Denmark was sent to take part in Barbarossa. That left one in Denmark. I don't know about Norway, but six German divisions took part in Operation Weserübung.
In case of Denmark a Swedish occupation would only free one German division. (later other German troops were garrisoned or training or fortifying in Denmark...) In the case of Norway it might be somewhat similar.
This won't possibly help the Germans in the east.
A Sweden as a German ally could have some BAD possibilities concerning Endlösung. Where would the jews of Denmark go to if Sweden was allied to Germany?
Not only were Norwegian able to benefit from Swedish neutrality but a Danish boot-camp were also set up where a brigade was trained - this later became the Danish contingent in occupying Germany.
How would Niels Bohr get out of Denmark and take part in the Manhattan Project if it wasn't for neutral Sweden?
In case of Denmark a Swedish occupation would only free one German division. (later other German troops were garrisoned or training or fortifying in Denmark...) In the case of Norway it might be somewhat similar.
This won't possibly help the Germans in the east.
A Sweden as a German ally could have some BAD possibilities concerning Endlösung. Where would the jews of Denmark go to if Sweden was allied to Germany?
Not only were Norwegian able to benefit from Swedish neutrality but a Danish boot-camp were also set up where a brigade was trained - this later became the Danish contingent in occupying Germany.
How would Niels Bohr get out of Denmark and take part in the Manhattan Project if it wasn't for neutral Sweden?
Grey Wolf
Donor
I was assuming when I saw this thread it would be all about how the Swedes would help the Germans to take Murmansk, and with convoys then having to go to Archangel making the Soviet war effort possibly fatally flawed... But you are the only one to mention this...
Best Regards
Grey Wolf