Khazaria never converts to Judaism

[Sir John A.]

What if the Khazars never converted to Judaism?

[Ridwan Asher]

They would be still allied to the Byzantines.

[Susano]

Okay, Ill bite.

Yes, I know its brought up a lot by anti-semites, but there might be nontheless a certain truth to that quite a lot of the current jews are descendant not from the Israelites or Judaeans, but the Khazarians. So, potentially fewer Jews, though I couldnt say how much.

[Leo Caesius]

Originally Posted by Susano

Yes, I know its brought up a lot by anti-semites, but there might be nontheless a certain truth to that quite a lot of the current jews are descendant not from the Israelites or Judaeans, but the Khazarians. So, potentially fewer Jews, though I couldnt say how much.

The theory was popularized by Arthur Koestler, who is certainly not an anti-Semite.

It's debatable whether all the Khazars and all of their subjects converted to Judaism, or just the Khagan and his immediate circle. As far as I know, most scholarship on the subject suggests the latter.

I suppose converting to Judaism was a useful survival strategy in the short term, but it didn't pay off in the long run. If they had converted to Orthodoxy or Islam, they might well have survived even longer (I suspect that converting to Islam like the other Turkic peoples would probably pay better dividends). Whether this would have any great effect outside of the North Caucasus is another matter; they might prove to be a useful buffer for Russian ambitions in the Caucasus.

[Atom]

It apears on a let less maps.

[Ibn Warraq]

Originally Posted by Susano

Okay, Ill bite.

Yes, I know its brought up a lot by anti-semites, but there might be nontheless a certain truth to that quite a lot of the current jews are descendant not from the Israelites or Judaeans, but the Khazarians. So, potentially fewer Jews, though I couldnt say how much.

I don't think's anti-semitic to make such a suggestion since the suggestion came from Arthur Koestler's, The Thirteenth Tribe.

However, while most Ashkenazi Jews clearly are not of 100% Middle Eastern descent, I think most historians agree that very few Khazars actually converted, that it was simply the King and some nobles.

Edit: Oops, I didn't see Leo's post.

[David bar Elias]

Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq

I don't think's anti-semitic to make such a suggestion since the suggestion came from Arthur Koestler's, The Thirteenth Tribe.

However, while most Ashkenazi Jews clearly are not of 100% Middle Eastern descent, I think most historians agree that very few Khazars actually converted, that it was simply the King and some nobles.

Edit: Oops, I didn't see Leo's post.

Yeah, I think Koestler's thesis was more or less debunked.

[NapoleonXIV]

Why/How is it used by anti-Semites?

[Ibn Warraq]

Originally Posted by NapoleonXIV

Why/How is it used by anti-Semites?

Some have argued that if most Ashkenazis are not descendants of ancient Hebrews but are instead descendants of Khazars then they have no right to Israel.

It's an extremely silly arguement. Koestler was a zionist.

If anything, I think he may have been blinded by an attempt to prove that Ashenazis weren't descended from the Jews who "killed Christ".

[Philip]

Originally Posted by NapoleonXIV

Why/How is it used by anti-Semites?

It is sometimes used by those who wish to separate modern Jews from the Old Testament Hebrews/Israelites. Some white-supremest groups try to establish themselves as the true blood descendants (hence, the Chosen People) of the Israelites.

[general_tiu]

Originally Posted by Philip

It is sometimes used by those who wish to separate modern Jews from the Old Testament Hebrews/Israelites. Some white-supremest groups try to establish themselves as the true blood descendants (hence, the Chosen People) of the Israelites.

Like those British Israelicists?

If the Khazars don't convert to Judaism, they may go Orthodox or have gone like the Chechens.

[Valdemar II]

Originally Posted by Philip

It is sometimes used by those who wish to separate modern Jews from the Old Testament Hebrews/Israelites. Some white-supremest groups try to establish themselves as the true blood descendants (hence, the Chosen People) of the Israelites.

Which is ironic because the Nazi spared groups of Turkic speaking Jews like the Karaites was spared mostly from the Holocaust, because they was seen as Aryan like other turks (Yes I know that Turks are not Indo-European).

[abas]

Originally Posted by Leo Caesius

The theory was popularized by Arthur Koestler, who is certainly not an anti-Semite.

It's debatable whether all the Khazars and all of their subjects converted to Judaism, or just the Khagan and his immediate circle. As far as I know, most scholarship on the subject suggests the latter.

Yes, the historians think so but AFAIK the new researches of the Russian archeologists show that judaism was very widespread among commoners also.There were some changes in burial rituals.

I suppose converting to Judaism was a useful survival strategy in the short term, but it didn't pay off in the long run. If they had converted to Orthodoxy or Islam, they might well have survived even longer (I suspect that converting to Islam like the other Turkic peoples would probably pay better dividends). Whether this would have any great effect outside of the North Caucasus is another matter; they might prove to be a useful buffer for Russian ambitions in the Caucasus.

I don't think that judaism had something to do with downfall of Khazars. They suffered more from some economical crisis and the new enemies (Russians from the west and Pechenegs from The East)

[demonkangaroo]

The Khazars were Jewish? i didn't know that. live and learn...