Europe without the French?

[Rny2]

How would Europe look in the 1850's if the Franks died off before reaching what is now France?

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Rny2

How would Europe look in the 1850's if the Franks died off before reaching what is now France?

Almost 1500 years of history? Pretty hard to predict without writing an entire timeline.

[Bavarian Raven]

...most of what is now "france" would probably be divided amongst four nations...spain, britain and germany being the main three, with italy taking small "bits" in the south...

[The Sicilian]

Originally Posted by Bavarian Raven

...most of what is now "france" would probably be divided amongst four nations...spain, britain and germany being the main three, with italy taking small "bits" in the south...

With a POD so far in the past, polities such as 'Spain' or 'Germany' might not exist.

Rny2, try refining your POD to generate better discussion.

[B_Munro]

Originally Posted by Rny2

How would Europe look in the 1850's if the Franks died off before reaching what is now France?

Pretty much the same, except the Latin-speaking chunk north of the Pyrennes is called "Marcomane" or "Lombardia" or perhaps "Saxony"...

Seriously, as Philip said: the butterflies from some other bunch (or bunches) of German-speakers establishing their rule over Gaul will be, after 1500 years, the size of aircraft carriers. We might have one, two, three or four countries in the area which OTL is "France": or France might be just part of a giant techno-theocratic Empire ruling western Europe, perpetually at war with the great powers of Bhuddist Pan-Slavia and Nestorian (although mostly atheistically Adilist nowadays) Greater Araby...

Bruce

[Archdevil]

Originally Posted by Bavarian Raven

...most of what is now "france" would probably be divided amongst four nations...spain, britain and germany being the main three, with italy taking small "bits" in the south...

If there are no Franks, how can there be a Germany?

Or Spain (grown from the Frankish Spanish Mark) and Italy (part of the Frankish Empire) for that matter?

[TotrueTufaar]

They were there before the French. They would manage to make countries on their own.

[coefficient]

a 50 hitler 50 hitler post?

[Fenwick]

Reported it.

[Max Sinister]

There also might be a Celtic state, a Greater Brittany.

[EmperorSimeon]

Well with France (GAUL) you could see either a Greater Hispania, or Greater Germany or Even a Greater Britain.

[B_Munro]

Why this odd asssumption that sans the Franks, no organized state appears in Former Gaul? Whole bunch of other Germanic tribes to take their place. Of course, there might be multiple states, but people seem to be assuming that there's some sort of vacuum into which Germans, British, and Iberians expand. I'll note that if for some reason there _is_ no effective state structure in Former Gaul 500's-800's, we might see Islam get rather further north than OTL, the Saxons might remain pagan a lot longer, and the movement of the German speakers eastward might be delayed. [1]

You know, there is a more focused AH question here: what if no Carolingian Empire? Slower expansion of Christianity eastward, Avars last longer, north Italy remains under the Lombards, no formation of the Holy Roman Empire with it's Pope-Emperor quarrels...

Bruce

[1] Unless it's the pagan Saxons which do the expanding...

[Tocomocho]

Well, this is more or less the list of countries that were there before Clovis and family made their kingdom and what could happen to them:

- Greater Visigothia south of the Loira. Without Vouillé and the loss of Aquitaine, the Visigothic kingdom would be centered at Toulouse and with less projection in Spain. That means a survival of the Suevish kingdom in Galicia and a longer period of independence for the Basque, Cantabrian and Asturian tribes. The distant southern Peninsula would be an easy target for the Byzantines, so the Romans could recover all Andalusia or even establish a frontier on the Ebro Valley. This would move the Visigoth attention to Gaul even more and we would end with the Goths being considered as the fathers of the ATL version of France, instead of the Franks.

- Greater (and real) Burgundy, dominated by Burgundians.

- The "Kingdom of the Romans" around OTL Paris. It would last longer and maintain an even more Roman "identity". Later, it could be either be conquered by another Germanic people or develop in a more advanced nation, maybe conquering and romanizing all the way to the Northern Sea.

- Brittany would receive a bigger Latin influence (it was very much in the KotR area of influence when the Franks came).

- The region around Marseilles would be pretty much in the Italian cultural sphere, but it could be annexed by the Burgundians once Ostrogothic Italy falls to the Byzantines. If the Visigoths and the Burgundians are in bad terms (they were friendly in OTL in order to counter the Franks) they could rebel and offer obedience to Toulouse.

[pompejus]

Without the (unified) Franks, is it possible that the Frisians will dominate the low countries and Northern France?

[DominusNovus]

Well, the Franks were one of the more organized groups of barbarians, and generally less destructive. They just moved into the existing power vacuum.

Perhaps the Visigoths settle down there. Or the Huns. Or both, its a big country. If the Visigoths are in the south, maybe they have even closer ties with their cousins in Italy. Or the Ostrogoths go to France, too.

There's just so so many different ways that everything could end up that its almost impossible to tell with any certainty what will initially happen. When you take one of the major tribal federations out of the loop, then everything else is going to get scrambled. We could see Saxons in Italy, Vandals in France, Huns in Africa, Lombards in Britain, Goths in the balkans, Gepids in Spain...

[Archdevil]

Originally Posted by pompejus

Without the (unified) Franks, is it possible that the Frisians will dominate the low countries and Northern France?

Depends on what the Saxons do.

[Rny2]

Originally Posted by Messiniano

Rny2, try refining your POD to generate better discussion.

As requested, a clarification/ specification.

If the Frankish origin tale is to be believed, then 12,000 Trojans escaping from Troy settled on the banks of the Don, later relocating to the Rhine.

Say, the proto-Franks/Sicambri stay in the area instead, and are overrun when the Goths come in 4th century.

This way, there's still all the various tribes that confederated into the Franks, just minus the Sicambri. The Rhine area'll be a little less crowded, while the initial migrations triggered by Saxon and Goth movements will be easier to handle in bits and pieces.