The world after WWIII

[Fenwick]

Let's say the cuban missile crisis goes hot. What happens to the world afterwards? Now before I hear, "no life remains," let us look at the numbe rof nukes acutally usable.

The U.S. had the weapons advantage against the USSR until the Crisis. It is now known that in 1962 the U.S. had eight times as many rockets as the USSR: 27,297 to 3,332. Missiles in Turkey where 16 minutes away from Moscow. Add to that the Soviet R-7 Semyorka had a 3-megaton warhead able to go 5,800 miles; while the lighter, smaller U.S. Atlas ported a 3.8-megaton warhead 11,500 miles. So the Soviets would take the brunt of the force. I'm not saying the US will get off light, but lighter then the Soviets.

[Hannibal.Caesar]

I don't know how easily a term like "getting off light" can be used when it comes to nuclear war. True, the US might have had more missiles than the Soviets, but the United States would have been hit incredibly hard. From a US-based perspective, here's what I see happening:

"Best case" scenario:
Western Russia is most likely a no-man's land, with cities like Moscow and St. Petersburg annihilated. Central and Western Europe would have been hit with tactical nukes by the Soviets, so I think Germany (especially Berlin), parts of France, and maybe London would be gone. On the mainland United States, cities on the Eastern seaboard would have been bombed, like Washington, D.C., and New York City. The Midwest would be facing nuclear fall-out and complete devastation of their crops. Which, in a few years, would lead to a worldwide famine.

"Worst case" scenario:
Western Russia gets wiped off the face of the map--Moscow, St. Petersburg, Volgograd, etc. are all gone. In eastern Russia, the US might have hit Soviet naval bases, like Vladivostok. The US might have used tactical nukes as well to destroy Soviet and Warsaw Pact troop formations, so large swathes of Eastern Europe would be nuked or at least rendered inhospitable. NATO countries near the USSR would have been hit hard; Germany, the UK, France, Turkey, and the like would have their major cities hit by high-yield Russian weapons. On the mainland United States, the Eastern seaboard would be rendered inhospitable, with cities like NYC, Washington, Baltimore, Boston, and Norfolk destroyed. The western US states that had silos located in them--the Dakotas, Kansas, etc.--would have suffered greatly. The Soviets would more likely than not have tried to take out industrial cities as well as major population centers too, so possibly Detroit, St. Louis, Chicago, and others would have been hit too.

So, frankly, if nuclear weapons had been used at any point during the Cold War we'd all be screwed. Though this may not be the "no one survives" thread you were wishing to avoid, it's pretty damn close. And I'm being generous too and pretending that other countries that had nuclear weapons at the time like China, Israel, and South Africa wouldn't get itchy trigger fingers either. Needless to say, even if some people survive, the world as we know it would be gone and it would have been replaced by a hell that's freezing cold with nuclear winter.

[Michel Van]

Europe city like London, Paris, Berlin are gone annihilated by Nukes.

Germany Cut in two By Extrem Dirty Fallout
If the Sovjet Nuke the NATO Atomar wapon Depot at Ramstein AFB
that Death zone start a Luxemburg goes over Frankfurt Fulda to DDR
Fulda Gap gona be Heavy Figthing NATO and USSR Trupps include use on Nuclear Wapons
like Davy Crockett a tactical nuclear recoilless rifle

SAC plans for Hit Moscow are with MRBM, ICBM, Bombers, with a TOTAL OF 100 MEGA TONS !!!
that Fallout will be Deathly for Western Russia and Scandinavian Peninsula (depens were the wind blows)

Direct after War in Europe:

England fragment in smal counties. with a military Controlbunker as HQ

France is Literaly beheading by Paris annihilate. because of the NATO HQ hits
Because all National Assembly politic, Militäry, Judiciary, Administrative, HQ of Major Companies are Center in Paris !
In a Country were litte counties village hast to make trippel paper demand to Paris, for Paint a House.
who gona happen with them wen Paris is Gone ?

Germany fall in to Piece thanks his Federal Republic Staate Stuctur
Nordreinwestfalen and Bayern Survive
Rheinlandpfalz, Hessen, Baden-Württemberg Scheswig Holstein and Part of Niedersachsen
Destroy by War action, Nukes and Deathly Fallout. over 50 % of inhaditants Death

DDR is gone. Destroy by War action, Nukes and Deathly Fallout over 50 % of inhaditants Death
and the Wind Blows the West German Fallout also over DDR !

Nuclear Winter after TTAPS (i know, there Comupter Model Sucks) give this:
temperature drops on -20°C (-4°F) after 20 Days so November 1962 to rise again to 0°C after 100 Days Feburary 1963
December 1962/ January 1963 Most Death by Radioactivity, starvation, disease or freeze to death.

Is "Lucky" that War Happens during autumn. so Nuclear winter and Winter goes almost along
end october with Harvest complet there are Stock of Food during the Winter (if not Radioactivit contaminated !)
in West Europe alot Survive with that, (except England wat need Food Import)
but in East Europe USSR and China with Collective farming gona have mass starvation on a large scale

Feburary 1963 temperature rise to 0°C
Spring of 1963
they will be only 8 Milion Sovjets, 100-64 Milion Chines, 11-4 Milion, English people alive in they Countrys !

most of Dust falls out sky giving black lung disease (Pneumoconiosis)
but the Nuclear Winter destroy almost the ozone layer and Hard UV B & C Light comme through.
for humans, prolonged exposure to solar UV radiation may result in acute and chronic health effects on the skin, eye, and immune system
like skin cancer. blindness.

wat with Plants and Animals and Humans ?

most plans Like Tree, Die throuugh Nuclear winter Darkness (or cut for Fire wood)
Seed in earth start germination process, and Find Radioactivit, Hard UV B & C Light !
only the Fittest plants or Mutant gona Survive This !

lot of animal face Extinction because War (Radioactivit, Hard UV B & C Light And starving Humans)
i think that Birds gona be complet Extinct. blind by UV light, dead Eggs by Radioactivit, rest hunted by humans
no Birds means lot of Insects, who eat Plants, Clouds of zilions Insect darking the Sky

big Animals like Horse or cow will not survive the Nuclear Winter, because eaten by people
If Humans are Starving they Eat everything ! Cow, pig, Horses, Dog, cats, People...
lot of Cats Dog and Pig escape surivies in wilderness become new threats to Humans

Juni 1963 the world Radioaktivity level drop on that of Chernobyl april 1986 (except Fallout Zone of war)

Autumn 1963 temperature almost Normal level
1967 last Dust from War rains down ending Nuclear winter beginn of Nuclear Sommer

1977 end Nuclear Sommer (beginn of new Iceage ???)
1980 the ozone layer back ok.

1992 the world Radioaktivity Level drop for 33% (Halflife of Casium 137)

[Jason]

Go with the idea in the book 'Resurrection Day'; USA and USSR have blasted merry hell out of each other-USSR is one hell of a mess whilst the USA is badly hit but still functioning as a nation. This follows on from JFK sending ground troops into Cuba to deal with the missile sites; the USSR and Cuban forces on the ground respond by using the nukes on the yanks (not a bright idea) and it all soon escalates as the USA and USSR start dropping nucs on each others home soils. Oh and China attacks India, which seems to end in China falling apart.

Europe was not nuked as as everyone there decided that the madness was not their madness thank you very much and decided to sit this one out. About the only comabt in Europe was when the Russians attacked the American garrison in East Berlin after the USA nucs the USSR (I think in the book, this is the USA's response to the use of nucs on its ground forces in Cuba). There is fallout to be dealt with in Europe but all things considered, everyone there feels they got off lightly.

With the USA a mess, it recalls all troops from overseas, and ends up getting a lot of aid from the UK. In Vietnam, the North takes the South soon after. The UK starts to aid its former colonies, who are suffering the indirect effects of the war, helping with refugee problems and maintaining order. France takes on a large European role, helping the eastern european nations now the USSR is gone. Germany reunites and works with France in Europe.

A different idea though not the greatest book, but at least for once Europe ends up NOT being a nuc'd mess in a post WW3 world

[Atreus]

It depends on how the war starts. I once read a story where a submarine nukes an American carrier. The US responds by conventionally bombing Cuba. 2 missile survive, one misfires, and the other Vaporizes Washington. The US responds by turning Russia and Cuba into Radioactive parking lots. The US becomes a pariah, and loses 250,000 civilians, but the Warsaw Pact and Cuba are gone. On the other hand, there are a few who say the end of the world.

Personally, I think the US loses Washington, New York, and several other cities and military bases. At the same time, Russia gets flattened, and central Europe, especially Germany, is wrecked by conventional and then nuclear warfare.

I think the winds were in general blowing east. So Western Europe, where it wasn't hit, could survive the radiation. Japan might pick up some (again)

[Michel Van]

Originally Posted by Atreus

I think the winds were in general blowing east. So Western Europe, where it wasn't hit, could survive the radiation. Japan might pick up some (again)

to be precise most of Europe Fallout goes Nordeast

i have Primitiv Fallout Map for 27 Oktober 1962
and Paris destruction Map

but i got problems with Upload

[MerryPrankster]

Originally Posted by Hannibal.Caesar

So, frankly, if nuclear weapons had been used at any point during the Cold War we'd all be screwed. Though this may not be the "no one survives" thread you were wishing to avoid, it's pretty damn close. And I'm being generous too and pretending that other countries that had nuclear weapons at the time like China, Israel, and South Africa wouldn't get itchy trigger fingers either. Needless to say, even if some people survive, the world as we know it would be gone and it would have been replaced by a hell that's freezing cold with nuclear winter.

The Israelis did not have nukes at the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis and neither did the South Africans.

I think the Chinese did, but they didn't have many.

Plus nuke winter, even if such a thing is possible (the original models were flawed, although newer models indicate such a thing might happen), is not the "glaciers in the Amazon" image that many people have. Think the Little Ice Age of medieval times (which was pretty darn bad--it caused all sorts of social dislocation, including the witch trials).

[MerryPrankster]

Originally Posted by Atreus

It depends on how the war starts. I once read a story where a submarine nukes an American carrier. The US responds by conventionally bombing Cuba. 2 missile survive, one misfires, and the other Vaporizes Washington. The US responds by turning Russia and Cuba into Radioactive parking lots. The US becomes a pariah, and loses 250,000 civilians, but the Warsaw Pact and Cuba are gone. On the other hand, there are a few who say the end of the world.

That was the one where Kennedy is killed in the Washington strike and the military takes over and ends up killing 80% of Russia's population, right?

I read that in an AH book somewhere.

[Darkest]

Amerigo already made the timeline. I believe it is unmatched in its skill in describing the conflict and the post-war world. Sure, things could have gone slightly different, and I don't like the idea of South Korea getting off, but its a great timeline.

http://www.alternatehistory.net/disc...ad.php?t=65071

[Hannibal.Caesar]

Originally Posted by MerryPrankster

The Israelis did not have nukes at the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis and neither did the South Africans.

I think the Chinese did, but they didn't have many.

Plus nuke winter, even if such a thing is possible (the original models were flawed, although newer models indicate such a thing might happen), is not the "glaciers in the Amazon" image that many people have. Think the Little Ice Age of medieval times (which was pretty darn bad--it caused all sorts of social dislocation, including the witch trials).

The line that I used about nuclear winter was really only there for poetic effect. I know that the world wouldn't have turned into an ice cube, but like you said it all would have been comparable to the Little Ice Age.

[Michel Van]

Originally Posted by MerryPrankster

The Israelis did not have nukes at the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis and neither did the South Africans.

I think the Chinese did, but they didn't have many.

in 1961-1962 China and Israel are developing Nukes (China test in 1964)
but China is Nuke by USA SIOP-62 Plan
leave Israel but with lost of France who gona help them ???
(france (and Germany ?) Help Israel with Nuclear Technolgy)

South Africa Politics were not even thinking about Nukes in 1962
OTL in 1970s they made a Joinventure with Israel (nuke Test 1978 ???)

France had Nukes in 1961 but with Administrative gone (nuke Paris)
can be that French algerienas take Nuke under Kontrol.

Originally Posted by Jason;

With the USA a mess, it recalls all troops from overseas, and ends up getting a lot of aid from the UK.

Whahahaha, sorry but autor of the book 'Resurrection Day' mis a point.
UK will not be able to this.

in the Cuba Crisis, the UK start Civildefence Program Evacuate, VIP, Women and Children
from Major City to The Country side. aktivating the `Regional War Rooms' or also called:
“protected control rooms with signal communications at local authority, zone, region and central government level"
13 Bunkers in UK, each have to control there counties after War.
more info here

Even if UK is not Hit by Nukes it would take 3-5 Years to
recover from economical damage of the Civildefence Program cost
source Peter Jackson BBC Tv Movie "The War Game" 1965

But the UK gona be hit by Nukes, Nuclear Winter, UV Light, insects plage, Radioactivity, starvation, disease.
after 1963 there will 11 to 4 Milion Surviver in UK ( on medieval levels ???)
Source the BBC TV Movie "Threads"

and they gona give aid to USA ??? i, Think they ask US for Help !!!

[Umbral]

I think part of the book he describes is that Europe stayed out of the war while the USSR and USA pounded each other with nukes.

The realism of such a scenario can be debated, but if it took place, I expect both nations would end up well below the UK -or Belgium for that matter- on the power scale.

I don't know much about the levels of nuklear armaments present at the Cuba crisis, but I always assumed a hot war resulting would end up something like this:

Scrach every large NATO and Warzaw pact city and military installation of the map. Scratch most medium sized cities, and smaller towns in strategic locations off the map.

A couple of medium sized cities will survive, if they are not in an important location. Less redundant targeting, and some mechanical failiures, as well as military personell with 5 minutes left to live deciding they don't want to enter the hereafter with a million civillian deaths on their rap sheet.

Good flat farmalnd is gone. Valleys and mountainous areas retain some farmaland.

Massive numbers of injured and refugees from the suburbs around cities flood the surroundings. Smashed remnants of foreign troops prowl continental europe.

A climate episode about equal to the Krakatoa explosion follows. In the northern hemisphere.

Israel and the middle east has a spasm-war episode leaving it even worse off.

The southern hemisphere should soon rise to dominance, along with China and India. With Brazil and Indonesia, they are the great powers of the new world order. An expanded apartheid South Africa and Australia might also be up there.

[Michel Van]

here Picture that shows Paris after is Hit by 3 Sovjet 2,8 MT H-bom
all targets NATO Headquarters, Airburst
Color
Yellow = Lightflash and Fire
Orange =Airblast Damage
Red = Radioactivity over 500 Rem ( Deathly)
the scale Line is 16 km long.

Souce Paris Picture Google Earth
Info about Nuke Hit
Nuclear Weapon Effects Calculator

[Max Sinister]

Yes, wouldn't esp. the US rather bomb important military bases instead of cities?

[Atreus]

Originally Posted by MerryPrankster

That was the one where Kennedy is killed in the Washington strike and the military takes over and ends up killing 80% of Russia's population, right?

I read that in an AH book somewhere.

Yes. Not to realistic, but Russia would get flattened. On the other hand, Europe and the US would have been hit harder.

[Michel Van]

Originally Posted by Max Sinister

Yes, wouldn't esp. the US rather bomb important military bases bases instead of cities?

Yes they can after SIOP-62 Plan give them choice conterforce = military bases ; contervalue = industry and city

But that most military targets near a City. see the Paris Map or German dence concentration of military bases.
wat Destroy city or give them Radioaktivity, Nuclear winter...

Originally Posted by MerryPrankster
That was the one where Kennedy is killed in the Washington strike and the military takes over and ends up killing 80% of Russia's population, right?

SIOP-62 Plan give option, wen Washington (and other US city) is Hit to make contervalue strike
(wen the Conterforce Attack is done. if Washington is Hit frist then is Total Conterforce + contervalue Attack)

from any Point of View the USSR is 80% destroy
if they make frist Attack the US make Total Conterforce + contervalue attack
if US make Conterforce attack, the USSR send wats left to US counterstrike, US make contervalue Attack.

Kubrik "dr Strangelove" Attack plan R is a Satirical punch on this concept.

wat was McNamara's formulation for that?
Mutual assured destruction...
MAD

[adam888]

The subject of a nuclear winter is not discussed but what does it
matter if we totally destroy the Russians for everyone would die
afterwards. Curtis Le May and the rest of the Military really wanted
to attack Cuba but thankfully JFK decided otherwise.

[Jason]

The book has a lot of weaknesses, it is just an interesting view of the situation as for once, in these sort of stories, Europe isn't turned into a nuclear wastesite.

The reason that the USA is getting aid is that it's infrastructure, within the permise of the book, is wrecked. It's government is gone, several large cities were hit by nuclear bombs and large parts of its population are homeless. In comparison, Europe is intact.

You have to remember, within the context of the book it's a short conflict, waged between the USA and USSR and other than Cuba (which edns up a radioactive mess) and Berlin (conventional battle) there isn't any significant combat elsewhere. in the story the USA is in no position to aid anyone.

Whether or not the plot is sensible, it was an interesting read simply because for once, the rest of the world isn't turned radioactive by the USA and USSR.

Originally Posted by Michel Van

Whahahaha, sorry but autor of the book 'Resurrection Day' mis a point.
UK will not be able to this.

in the Cuba Crisis, the UK start Civildefence Program Evacuate, VIP, Women and Children
from Major City to The Country side. aktivating the `Regional War Rooms' or also called:
“protected control rooms with signal communications at local authority, zone, region and central government level"
13 Bunkers in UK, each have to control there counties after War.
more info here

Even if UK is not Hit by Nukes it would take 3-5 Years to
recover from economical damage of the Civildefence Program cost
source Peter Jackson BBC Tv Movie "The War Game" 1965

But the UK gona be hit by Nukes, Nuclear Winter, UV Light, insects plage, Radioactivity, starvation, disease.
after 1963 there will 11 to 4 Milion Surviver in UK ( on medieval levels ???)
Source the BBC TV Movie "Threads"

and they gona give aid to USA ??? i, Think they ask US for Help !!!

[DominusNovus]

Originally Posted by adam888

The subject of a nuclear winter is not discussed but what does it
matter if we totally destroy the Russians for everyone would die
afterwards. Curtis Le May and the rest of the Military really wanted
to attack Cuba but thankfully JFK decided otherwise.

Pretty sure nuclear winter is one of those things that wouldn't likely happen, since most strikes would be airburst strikes.

[Michel Van]

Originally Posted by DominusNovus

Pretty sure nuclear winter is one of those things that wouldn't likely happen, since most strikes would be airburst strikes.

Read the links

Studie on Nuclear Winter

TTAPS study (1983) used a Primtive one-dimensional Computer model (that Program was orginal for Mars atmosphere Storms !)
WCRP report (1986) used 3-D Global climate models
TTAPS study (1990) used a three-dimensional model
2006 study on consequences of a regional nuclear war by AGU
Atmospheric effects and societal consequences of regional scale nuclear conflicts (also PDF)

Climatic consequences of regional nuclear conflicts(also PDF)

after WCRP result temperature drops of between 20 and 40 °C, though with regional variations.
after TTAPS 1990 result 22° C drop in mid-latitudes for 3 months

after AGU 50 x 15 Kt Nuke make Nuclear winter like 1816 "the year without a summer." (do the 1815 explosion of Tambora Vulcan)
that 0.75 MT
Study quote:
"With the exchange of 100 15-kiloton weapons as posed in this scenario, the estimated quantities of smoke generated could lead to global climate anomalies exceeding any changes experienced in recorded history," Robock said. "And that's just 0.03 percent of the total explosive power of the current world nuclear arsenal."

that 1.5 MT after SIOP-62 the US had used 1500 MT WORLDWIDE