Contact with other species of humans

As far as we can guess Neanderthal man did not survive contact with our ancestors.

There has been speculation that some people related to the "hobit" woman just might have survived even until now.

Can anyone suggest a time line in which Homo Sapiens contact other human species which does not result in the cultural and probably physical elimination of the less complex culture?

Derek Jackson said:

As far as we can guess Neanderthal man did not survive contact with our ancestors.

There has been speculation that some people related to the "hobit" woman just might have survived even until now.

Can anyone suggest a time line in which Homo Sapiens contact other human species which does not result in the cultural and probably physical elimination of the less complex culture?

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Isn't the jury out about Neanderthals? I seem to recall speculation that they interbred with homo sapiens, which is why Europeans have some marked physical differences from the other races, like more body hair, large noses, bump on the back of the head, and more prominent brow.

But if the species can't interbreed, the contact would have to occur very late to avoid the extinction of the less complex culture. Very early the smaller species is probably in trouble. Culturally complex hobbits are still going to be wiped out by big brutes. But if the Hobbits were isolated on an island until the 18th c, then perhaps they would make it, as long as they are cute and cuddly, not nasty little things.

Going to have to agree with Abdul here. We humans are a nasty lot even to each other and if we came across other species of humans sooner or later it would come down to a 'Us vs Them' battle--be it over land, resources, food or just because we don't like how they look.

Only two ways I can see survival of other species: a) they're bigger or meaner or more psychotic than us, so our ancestors give them a wide berth or b) like 'Flo the hobbit woman', they're in isolated areas and we don't come across them until we've achieved a higher level of enlightenment or they have achieved a equal level of technology.

Cynical as it may sound, a possible way for hobbit-like humans not to be wiped out by homo sapiens is enslavement. Historically, we humans have had no qualms about treating members of our own species as quasi-animals, so near-humans would be fair game; but at least, once we`ve found out how useful they can be, we`ll have a vested interest in keeping their species going.
This will make interesting equal-rights controversies once we reach the 20th century and outright slavery is no longer palatable. How equal to us should these guys be? A possible side effect might be a less pronounced intra-species racism: why theorize the racial inferiority of Africans, Semites, Slavs or whomever, when there is such a convenient Untermensch race around?
A novel was actually written on that theme in the 1950s: Les Animaux Denatures (Adulterated Animals, or something like that in English) by Vercors. It`s the story of the chance discovery on some remote indonesian island of Homo Abilis-type humanoids, and the philosophical turmoil that ensues as the concept of humanity needs to be redefined.

Hendryk said:

A novel was actually written on that theme in the 1950s: Les Animaux Denatures (Adulterated Animals, or something like that in English) by Vercors. It`s the story of the chance discovery on some remote indonesian island of Homo Abilis-type humanoids, and the philosophical turmoil that ensues as the concept of humanity needs to be redefined.

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Fascinating. There was a Turtledove novel (well--more like a series of short stories and novellas put together into one book) called 'A Different Flesh' that had a similiar theme--in it, instead of Native Americans coming across the Bering Strait, it was H. erectus, so when the first europeans showed up they found ape-like beings running around--along with mammoths and saber-tooth tigers and so forth.
We follow the ATL from 1500 to 1988.

Of course, we europeans end up either killing them, enslaving them or using them for medical research. A lot of points that you mentioned are brought up.

p.s. Les Animaux Denatures means Denatured Animals

Maybe empetment? The other species, most likely less intelligent could be a good pet.

"hey, hobbie, get me a beer"

Competition

The real problem is we compete for the same basic resources as closely related species (or genuses). Therefore,when we run into one, we either out compete them by utilizing the resources more efficiently, ot they out compete us.

However in the past this wasn't true and eveidence suggests that for the majority or our existance we actually did coexist with other human populations. Only when the technology of Homo Sapiens allowed us to extend out of our previous geographic and ecological niches and into those that other groups had physicially evolved into did we actually begin to out compete them.

So you are left with two scenarios, survival by isolation and survival by adaptation to another ecological niche.

we see better intraspecies race relations but far worse for the other species.

The only place on earth I could see another species theoretically holding on is Iceland. Let's say the Neanderthals manage to sail there, somehow, in the late ice age. Their population would likely be tiny, in the range of a few thousand, due to the lack of food besides from the sea (Tasmania only had 5,000 prior to contact for comparison). They would not have been on Iceland for long enough to dwarf or change substantially from their ancestors.

Prior to the viking arrival, Irish monks come as they would have otherwise, but form a more permenant base in an attempt to christianize the Neanderthals.

Let's just say, for the sake of argument, Neanderthals did have minds that worked roughly like ours, and complex language. Christianizing works to a certain extent, with a subset of the population converting, and most everyone gaining the benefit of new technologies to a certain extent.

Vikings arrive. Irish monks manage to slip out almost all of the Christian Neanderthals. They become established as a community in Ireland to this day, becoming fully integrated, albeit losing almost all of their culture in the process.

The ones left behind are, in the beginning, almost unmolested by the Vikings. They have nothing worth plundering. They also neither use the interior of Iceland (no native land animals), or go far into the ocean, so they do not initally cause much friction with the pastoral culture that develops. Considering the Vikings have a reputation as warlike, this may seem odd, but they had experience with stone-age finns and lapps and similarly did not slaughter them needlessly.

However, the superior strength of the Neanderthals becomes obvious, and they're soon hired for odd jobs. Like most pre-agricultural people, they do not take well, culturally speaking, to long, tedious work. As conflicts begin to arise with livestock raiding, groups are dispersed, with adult males killed, and women and children brought into bondage. The population just barely survives, because they cannot breed true with other humans, and once acculturated, the children submit to slavery...about as well as normal people do, meaning enough to suffer, yet still reproduce.

Neanderthal population undergoes an explosion by the 1300's due to drops in infant mortality. There is no plantation style system, but many small landowners have slaves for the heavier field work, barn raising, etc. Surplus slaves filter into Norway, and eventually Denmark, though not into Sweden. A minor slave revolt results in a group escaping to Greenland (where their decendents were rediscovered in the mid 1800s).

Some minor historical butterflies hit the U.S. upon founding. A scattered few Irish Neanderthals immigrate, and seek to claim rights as men, but immigrants from Norway to the upper midwest claim that they are allowed slaves on free soil because Neanderthals are not of the race of men. The supreme court om the 1850's narrowly rules that slavery is slavery, and uses the testimony from some learned Neanderthals from Ireland to suggest that "the level of civilization that can be gained by these men is superior to that of the negro". Many Norse immigrants transplant to Oklahoma as result.

Slavery is outlawed in Denmark proper in 1876, and Norway in 1905. Iceland holds on through the 1940s, but one Irish MP (of Neanderthal decent) makes an impassioned speech at the United Nations resulting in a condemnation of Iceland. Given slavery at this point was nomial economically, the remaining slaves are released.

Thoughts? This is rough of course.

Hobbit slaves would have a pretty narrow market pretty much limited to fetishists and maybe sewer cleaning.

Hendryk said:

Cynical as it may sound, a possible way for hobbit-like humans not to be wiped out by homo sapiens is enslavement. Historically, we humans have had no qualms about treating members of our own species as quasi-animals, so near-humans would be fair game; but at least, once we`ve found out how useful they can be, we`ll have a vested interest in keeping their species going.
This will make interesting equal-rights controversies once we reach the 20th century and outright slavery is no longer palatable. How equal to us should these guys be? A possible side effect might be a less pronounced intra-species racism: why theorize the racial inferiority of Africans, Semites, Slavs or whomever, when there is such a convenient Untermensch race around?
A novel was actually written on that theme in the 1950s: Les Animaux Denatures (Adulterated Animals, or something like that in English) by Vercors. It`s the story of the chance discovery on some remote indonesian island of Homo Abilis-type humanoids, and the philosophical turmoil that ensues as the concept of humanity needs to be redefined.

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The 'Hobbits' would be no good for heavy labour but might be used in place of child labour after Lord Shaftbury's reforms.

I like Eschaton's Neanderthal scenario quite a bit.

Good scenario eschaton.

Here is an Rough Scenario for an future Timeline I am thinking about writing. Let me know how it is and any suggestons are welcomed


c.a.40,000 BCE: Ug, a Neanderthal living in the Middle East (where cultivable grains and domesticable animals are known to have existed from earliest times), in response to competition from Homo Sapiens, has the idea to begin farming growing wheat and barley in the Tigris-Euphrates valley...rather than competing directly with the newcomers for the same hunting grounds. Other Neanderthals, seeing the success of Ug's band, follow suit. Removed from direct competition for the same resources, the Neanderthals in the Mid-East survive and prosper, while those in Europe die out, on schedule. Eventually, for protection from raiding Homo Sapiens nomads, they begin to build fortified villages, and start down the long road to civilization. By 20,000 B.C.E. they have invented the wheel, pottery, and writing, and moved from primitive tribal village culture to the first true cities.


c.a. 35,000 BCE: The Ug Neanderthal bands begin domesticating the Animals of the Middle East, (Bovides, and fresh water fish). They also begin setting up fortified villiages.

c.a. 30,000 BCE: the Wheel is invented. Village societies are combining into larger units.

c.a. 20,000 BCE: The first true city states develop. Writing is developed. Metallurgy...copper and bronze...begins to replace stone for tool-making. God-Kings rule over well-organized societies and are able to marshal labor for huge public works projects...for example, dams are built on some of the Desert Oasis and portions of the the Mid East are irrigated. Neanderthal population expands as more arable land is made available. Organized warfare first makes it's appearance shortly afterward.

13,000 BCE: Homo floresiensis - a tiny hobbit-like human appears on the Indoneasian Island of Flores. Descendant of Homo Erectus, Although small It's Cranial structure blessess the "Hobbits' with Intellect similar to that of Homo Sapiens and makes an far superior Tool Kit compared to the Neanderthals. These Hobbit's begin to organize into Larger bands-and proto Tribal Groups.

c.a. 10,000 BCE: Along with the Homo Sapiens, and small group of Gigantopithecus blacki cross the Siberan land Bridge into North America. While most of the Homo Sapien Tribes revert to an Hunt and Gatherer lifestyle. The Gigantopithecus stays stationary in OTL British Columbia,Alberta, Washington and Oregon. Theses Humaniods will be what most natives call Sasquatch. Also about this time, The first large states have formed as conquering armies unite the various city states of Australia. Shipbuilding has progressed and regular coastal trade (and early naval warfare) is being carried on between these states. Also about this Time the first complex comunities begin popping up in the Iberian Pennisula

c.a. 8,000 BCE: Competition between the Sasquatch's and the American Indians causes the Sasquatches to develop eye-hand coordination, visual perception, and other such traits reaching the stage of Giganthropithecus Sapiens. The new species is using fire, and producing tools out of wood and stone, and is developing a spoken language. Also about this time, writing and Metalurgy is discovered by the Hobbits.

c.a. 5,000 BCE: Several species of megafauna which went extinct in OTL have been domesticated...the most important of which are several species of Horses and Bovides, which are used both as food and as beasts of burden...and crops are being regularly grown and stored. Pottery and basketry have been developed. One industry which has lagged behind is weaving...since the Sasquatch still retain their body hair, they have little need for clothing. Individual communities sometimes carry out joint public works projects (digging irrigation systems, raising stone megalithic monuments to their gods, etc.) with other communities.

c.a. 3,000 BCE: The First true Homo Sapien Cities arise on the Rhine Valley and Crete of Europe, and on the Nile river of Africa. Also about this time the Hobbits, begin building crude boats spreading their species througoht Indonesian Archeplioa by the end of the milenica.

c.a. 2,000 BCE: The Sasquatch due to increasing hostilies from the Clovis point hunters, begin enslaving humans for their extreme building projects. Also about this time, The Neanderthal civilazation in the Middle east is orgainized into four portions. In Mesopatamia, Anatolia, the Iranian Plateau, and Arabia. The four states will be almost at constant war with each other or will some time find allainces between one another against the invading Egyptians who hunger for Palestine.

Good TimeLine, Didn't a group of Neanderthal like People make it to about 10000 BC in OTL in Southern Spain. And are Neanderthal related to Homo erectus or Homo Sapiens, what about DNA evidence?

awesome!!


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Wouldnt Australia be a good place for a different human species?

the shortpeople are close by aren't they? it could be their 'promised land'.

fortyseven said:

Good scenario eschaton.

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Yes, bravo eschaton.

orion900 said:

Good TimeLine, Didn't a group of Neanderthal like People make it to about 10000 BC in OTL in Southern Spain. And are Neanderthal related to Homo erectus or Homo Sapiens, what about DNA evidence?

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Interesting, I am definatley going to check in on the Iberian Neanderthal Theory. The Neanderthal's are an branch of Homo Sapeins...Homo Neanderthalis Sapiens