King Karl I of Hungary

Suppose that with the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian the former Emperor Karl I was able to suceed in his bid to become King of Hungary. What's more the allies deceide to be kinder to Hungary than in OTL. As a result Hungary is a monarchy and is less likely to be pushed into the German allied column. In fact relations between Hungary and Czechoslovkia are quite good. Might not this upset all of what happen in our time line?
 
I once had the same idea. Problem: Admiral Horthy had declared Hungary a kingdom, but he liked governing without a king very much.

"In fact relations between Hungary and Czechoslovkia are quite good."

? Not in OTL.
 

Susano

Banned
Problem is, a habsburg King would worsen relations to everybody. IIRC, that was one reason for Horthy to keep Charles out. Theer even was the possible teh allies would militarily intervene in Hungary to topple Charles, should he suceed.
 
Actually Charles Hapsburg was warmly regarded by quite a few important people in the west. The is the possibility that if he was allowed to take the throne,after all he was both Emperor of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and King of Hungary, that the French might have weaken the punishment and territorial demands on Hungary.:)
 
Suppose that with the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian the former Emperor Karl I was able to suceed in his bid to become King of Hungary. What's more the allies deceide to be kinder to Hungary than in OTL. As a result Hungary is a monarchy and is less likely to be pushed into the German allied column. In fact relations between Hungary and Czechoslovkia are quite good. Might not this upset all of what happen in our time line?

Bright day
Everybody made known in no uncertain terms that they would invade the moment Charles takes the Crown of Stephan.
 
The is the possibility that if he was allowed to take the throne,after all he was both Emperor of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and King of Hungary, that the French might have weaken the punishment and territorial demands on Hungary.:)

It wasn't the French that were dealing these. (Why do people keep treating Eastern European countries as irrelevant?) It all depends on the timing. If it's after Bela Kun was overthrown, Hungary's fate is sealed and there's nothing Karl can do about it. The Western Allies might even approve the Serb-Czechoslovak demand to create a land border between them in the west because it would split Hungary from Austria and decrease the possibility of the Habsburgs coming back there to.
 
It wasn't the French that were dealing these. (Why do people keep treating Eastern European countries as irrelevant?) It all depends on the timing. If it's after Bela Kun was overthrown, Hungary's fate is sealed and there's nothing Karl can do about it. The Western Allies might even approve the Serb-Czechoslovak demand to create a land border between them in the west because it would split Hungary from Austria and decrease the possibility of the Habsburgs coming back there to.

Would Bergenland then be part of Yugoslavia?:confused:
 
On the contray the two big allied powers had tremidous clout with the Balkan powers. It was the French and the English that okayed anything that took place . If France told the Czechs that they would have to live with Charles then that would be it. Also charles got along fairly well with the Czech subjects when he was emperor.
 
On the contray the two big allied powers had tremidous clout with the Balkan powers. It was the French and the English that okayed anything that took place . If France told the Czechs that they would have to live with Charles then that would be it. Also charles got along fairly well with the Czech subjects when he was emperor.

You're not getting it. The reason Hungary got out with such a great loss of territory is the war with Romania and Czechoslovakia that followed the proclamation of the Hungarian Soviet Republic and ended with the Romanian occupation of Budapest. The final peace terms were not dictated by Britain and France, which had nothing to gain, but by Romania and Czechoslovakia, and they would have told the French to screw themselves if they perceived that a line had been crossed.

Anyway, here's some stuff on the corridor I mentioned:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_Corridor
http://terkepek.adatbank.transindex.ro/kepek/netre/168.gif

In the unlikely case that Charles secures the Hungarian throne, I'm willing to bet the western allies would agree to the corridor so as to ensure that he won't spread Habsburg power to Austria. Furthermore, Hungary's other neighbors might get territorial compensation too for agreeing to it. The Hungarians can count themselves lucky that they still have Pecs, Mohacs and territory east of the Tisza. The French and British influence at Trianon can be seen in the territory that Hungary managed not to lose.
 
On a similar sort of topic, why not in the aftermath of WWI have some of the larger "German" nation regain their independence, Bavaria for one??
 
The allied main powers had a lot more clot than you might realize . To begin with they could have withdrawn allowing the creation of Czechoslovkia and have allowed the German state a bigger military. As far as the Hungarian communist government of the early 1920's with different peace terms it was unlikely to come to power especially if in 1918 Karl was made King. There would have be a counterrevolution even if they did come to power. What perhaps is not understood is that Karl had a better relationship with his former Czech and slovakian subjects than other members of his family.
 
The allied main powers had a lot more clot than you might realize . To begin with they could have withdrawn allowing the creation of Czechoslovkia

Yeah, I'm sure the French would be happy to ruin their relations with a potential ally against Germany. And that this would have stopped the Czechs and Slovaks.

and have allowed the German state a bigger military.

Which would go against everything they were trying to do at Versailles. Let's be serious.

As far as the Hungarian communist government of the early 1920's with different peace terms it was unlikely to come to power especially if in 1918 Karl was made King.

It came to power in the late 1910s, before the peace terms. The peace terms were so bad (and could've been worse) because Hungary was on its knees, which is because the communists were overthrown by Romanian troops. Is the chronology getting through to you?

There would have be a counterrevolution even if they did come to power. What perhaps is not understood is that Karl had a better relationship with his former Czech and slovakian subjects than other members of his family.

And that relation will turn sour if he resists Czech ambitions in Czechoslovakia, which is just what most of his people would expect him to do.
 
King Karl I of Hungary

It would seem that all we would then see is a rehash of conditions which lead up to the second world war. The Hungarians would be very unhappy about the seizing of territory that contained ethnic Hungarians. Leading to bloodshed between the countries. It would seem that forgotten in this arguement would be the Poles , who have territorial claims against the Czechs and who developed warm relations with the Hungarians. The Czech also have their own problems as the Slovakians were very unhappy with the failure of the Federal system and being treated,in their opinion as second class citizens by the Czech's. It would seem that it would have been in everyone's interest if Hungary had gotten Karl as it's ruler as it might have not fallen under the sway of Nazi Germany.
 
It would seem that forgotten in this arguement would be the Poles , who have territorial claims against the Czechs

And the Russians as their biggest worry.

and who developed warm relations with the Hungarians.

And the Romanians. I don't mean to brag, but they'd find this friendship more useful.

The Czech also have their own problems as the Slovakians were very unhappy with the failure of the Federal system and being treated,in their opinion as second class citizens by the Czech's.

Czechoslovakia had just been formed, it would be years before the Slovaks become dissatisfied with it.

It would seem that it would have been in everyone's interest if Hungary had gotten Karl as it's ruler as it might have not fallen under the sway of Nazi Germany.

It would have little to do with it. Romania was pro-French and ended up on the Axis side. Greece was pro-German and Germany still had to invade it to bail out Mussolini. Yugoslavia was only invaded because the government that had decided to align it with the Axis was overthrown. WWII after the fall of France saw its share of alliances of convenience and incidental wars. Karl would have been given the same 2 choices as Horthy: join with Germany and get neighboring lands or resist and be invaded.
 
Actually the Slovakians became very unhappy when the Czech deligates had them deported back to the new Czechoslovkian state when they attempted to seek more autonomy at the Paris Peace talks. The Czech authorties promply had them arrested and so the unhappiness just continued to grow and grow.
 
Actually the Slovakians became very unhappy when the Czech deligates had them deported back to the new Czechoslovkian state when they attempted to seek more autonomy at the Paris Peace talks. The Czech authorties promply had them arrested and so the unhappiness just continued to grow and grow.

Arghhh. Nooo!!!

Board just ate my response... :(

Okay, one - this is false as federation was agreed upon. It just was that by the time the final constitution was accepted in 1921, the war with Hungarian Council Republic, the Czech-Polish War, the border territories trying to secede and the economing slump most Czech politicians believed that Czechoslovakia needed strong central goverment to survive and that Czechoslovakism could be used as a cornerstone fro the country. Of course, with death of Rastislav Štefánik, the Slovaks had lost their largest politician and Czechoslovakism was total idiocy.

Yet, to believe that Slovaks only waited for opportune time to knife Czechs in the back is wrong. Tiso was given two choics in his Berlin meeting, independent Slovakia, or hungarian Slovakia. I can't fault him for his choice (though I can fault him for being clerico-fascist swine). But still many Slovaks remained loyal to the cause of Czechoslovakia, fighting in resistance both at home, as in Slovak National Uprising or assasination of Reinhard Heydrich, and abroad, in Czechoslovak units in France, USSR and North Africa.
 
I am not talking about the 1938 period but the 1919 talks in France. I have little doubt that the Slovak story is not the total truth but I do believe that what came out was much less than what they expected. No doubt the Slovak leadership seriously undermined the Czech govt in 1938 and contributed to the French and British not backing the Czech's aganist Hitler's plan to attack.
 
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