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#1
January 28th, 2004, 04:12 PM
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Global Dynamics in a US-Nazi Cold War
Alien Space Bats, by their mighty labors, let Germany beat the USSR in 41, although it takes until 43 to finally mop up everything.
Now, even alien space bats can't stop the allies from liberating north africa, although italy's probably beyond reach. In a final act before they collapse of exhaustion, they prevent Germany from being nuked in 45. Japan still goes down in a hail of nuclear weapons in 1945. With no USSR, what happens to Manchuria and China? What about India and North Africa. Specifically, has the collapse of the USSR discreditted state owned companies? 
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#3
January 28th, 2004, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
I don't see how WW2 could end in any sort of Armistice with the scenario you describe. We still have nukes and will use them and Germany will be crushed. To posit a USA-Nazi cold war, I think you've got to have one of two things happen (in addition to a Soviet defeat): (1) The USA never enters WW2 at all and Germany defeats Russia and the western allies - including Britain (either by outright conquest or a "finlandization" amistice), or (2) After the US enters, UK/US forces suffer crushing defeats - such as in Normandy and North Africa - forcing Britain to seek armistice and deprive USA of base for bombing and invasion. As long as England remains in the war (and allied forces are in North Africa or Italy) the war will not end short of Nazi collapse.
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#5
January 28th, 2004, 09:15 PM
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give the nazis nukes maybe? that could deter the US from attacking...
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#6
January 29th, 2004, 01:02 AM
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Quote:
You may argue that this PoD and war outcome is ASB- but I did make a point of playing out the US-Nazi Cold War afterwards- Here's some ideas, from a scenario [another thread] where the US fought a war but only on the Pacific front, and the European War ended with the scenario you described above, it gives a treatment of cultural differences in the US, Germany and the USSR, and the geopolitical situation: The Post-War Era- Germany and America are clearly the 2 superpowers, with Russia, Britain, China and Italy as secondary players, Japan is under US occupation and will only reemerge later as an economic force. Publics in both countries [Germany and USA] clearly perceive things that way. It's like the Russo-American Cold War, only worse because there's no pretence of cooperation, or common membership in the UN. Instead of two former allies bickering, it's two countries who almost went to war, and never were allies at all. The US demobilizes substantially and enjoys a consumer boom, but it does not de-mobilize its forces nearly as much as it did in OTL, because of the German threat. In fact fear of Germany and Hitler is such that more wartime controls may be kept than were in the real OTL Cold War. The US does have the outlook of a world power now because of the Japan War, and a National Security Act is passed in 1945. The Manhattan Project is still funded and the bomb is tested in New Mexico in November 1945. The US doesn't attempt anything like the Baruch plan for international atomic control, and begins steady production of weapons. National security measures are given a boost by the 1946 food for weapons deal between Germany and Juan Peron's Argentina, which is much ballyhooed in the American press. The American CIA engages in plotting against the Peron regime, but the most effective US policy is US support to Brazil and Chile as counterweights to Argentina. In this way, Getulio Vargas of Brazil becomes America's client #1 in South America against the Peron regime, although the 2 regimes domestic policies are almost indistinguishable. The Reich continues the final solution, a balanced weapons build-up, and anti-partisan operations in Eastern Europe and the Balkans. By 1947 the Germans are using helicopter-based tactics in search and destroy operations against partisans. The Reich does civil reconstruction and that's what Goebbels emphasizes, people in the Reich don't really want to hear much about the naval program. As trade reopens with Latin America, the situation of the German consumer improves, in part because costs are shifted to occupied peoples, who continue to endure grinding poverty. There is no US, UK or USSR trade with Germany [beyond exchange of rare vital minerals], but nobody can stop neutrals from trading. Also disturbing is growing South African-German ties after the Nationalist Party wins power in South Africa in 1947. The US bases atomic bombers on Soviet and British territory in the late 40s, to deter renewed warfare. President Truman manages to make the case for deterrence, because its too dangerous to be ambiguous here. The Germans develop the bomb in 1949 or so, having been shown that its doable and it won't incinerate the atmosphere. As in OTL, the US military makes plans and proposals for pre-emptive war on the Nazis while we have the atomic monopoly. The plans are more seriously considered in this TL, because of Hitler's more unstable nature. Curtis LeMay is the chief military advocate of preemptive war. In the end, the administration doesn't support 'an atomic Pearl Harbor'. The US is most concerned with German tests of rocket technology, naval technology and long-range aircraft in the late 40s. In 1950 the Germans launch the first space satellite, prompting a massive response in US scientific investment. The German atom bomb is more frightening than the Soviet, because they have delivery systems: submarines, the Amerika Bomber, and soon rockets, almost as soon as they get the bomb. When Olympic competition resumes, everybody's watching when USA and Germany face-off, the Soviets can't afford to field a team. There's more Jesse Owens type stuff. Black and Jewish and ethnic Americans among others facing off against Aryan athletes. Ideologically, we [in the US] contrast our progressivism, liberty and melting pot ethic with Nazi racism. Communists are not really suspect in the United States, just extreme right-wingers. The German spy network is much less effective however, than the Communists' in OTL. Democratic Party civic organizations, and labor , don't focus on purging communists, one of their big campaigns is against racial segregation. The administration desegregates the armed forces in 1947 or so. Many scenarios with a surviving Nazi state predict more right-wing US politics, I disagree. While Germany is not really competing for the friendship of non-white nations as the USSR was, we often like to define ourselves by the way we contrast ourselves with the enemy. Because our enemies are Fascists, its very hard to tar socially progressive movements with the brush of national security threat. The Deep South still resists integration, the main factors determining events are still domestic. It's a tough struggle, but it gets underway earlier. There's a subtle impact also from the greater American exposure to China, and the substantial number of Chinese war brides and Japanese occupation brides ---Of course not nearly as many as Australians. Asia is a little less strange, even if Americans learn to have even more contempt from certain aspects of Chinese culture. There's probably also a bigger drug problem from Chinese opium/heroin, as more people pick up the habit over in China. ************************************************** ************ The upshot of this scenario is that by the late 1950s the United States is a much more advanced country, technologically and socially-from an early space program and early civil rights movement and an early drug problem. At the same time defense is a bigger burden on GDP [although still distributed more towards Air, Naval, and Strategic weapons than ground forces compared to OTL] and trade with China is a poor substitute for trade with continental Western Europe. [resulting in a smaller US economic surplus] As long as Hitler's around, the chances of nuclear war are greater. He may purge the military a bit. I suspect a mellowing after his death, but I'm not sure what form it would take, or when he would go.* ***********************************************888 The arenas of US-German rivalry would be Latin America, Asia, the Middle East and Africa. The US would have the allegiance of black Africa by default. Castro might be a fascist dictator eventually. Seriously, he was an admirer of Mussolini and Juan Peron. Germany would attempt to woo China, in order to trade, and to outflank the Soviet Union. Strategically Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan-Pakistan and China would be considered most important to Germany in the 3rd world. Germany could offer Chiang military support and support territorial claims on the USSR. Chiang may flirt with it, but probably would not break irrevocably with the US, especially while the US atomic monopoly lasts. US-Chinese relations may not be that rosy with issues of drug smuggling, human rights/Tibet concerns, and Chinese resentment of US advice and any policies that rebuild Japan. At the same time, initially he would be the recipient of a larger US aid package. In the Argentine-German relationship, the Germans will be glad to have a source of raw materials and a vaguely ideological ally. They will roll their eyes at a Jewish policy which is discriminatory, but not so bad that Buenos Aires really loses any of its large Jewish population. The Nazis will enjoy racial solidarity with South Africa, but will be exasperated by continued democratic procedures applied to the white population. Still, conditions in South Africa may become unattractive enough that most Jews and English-speaking whites leave. A later, mellowed Nazi regime in the 50s and 60s may shift some of its racial policies to imitate the South African 'homelands' policy. Strategic corridors of Poland and East Europe will be German settled, and Polish and Ukrainian laborers will have to go back to scattered reservations at night. They will probably give up on the goal of completely replacing the occupied Slavic populations. Some of the more prominent dissident groups may be fundamentalist Christians of various sorts; Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Mennonites [akin to the Amish], who fail to accept National Socialist 'Volkische' principles. If this timeline has an equivalent to the Soviet Jewish emigration issue, it may be Mennonite-Amish persecution and emigration. In the shrunken Soviet Union, wartime toleration and encouragement of religion may persist through the postwar years. The Soviets will do a crash rebuilding program and will get some reconstruction aid from America. They will accept the presence of US nuclear bombers as insurance, but do whatever they can do get the bomb for themselves. Their espionage and development efforts will be redoubled after the Germans develop their own bomb, because Stalin will doubt that America will trade New York for Moscow. Worldwide, communism will be a more minor force, operating in coalition with liberals and socialists. If any spy rings are exposed and prosecuted, the reaction in Britain and the US will be more mild, it will be treated as if the French or Israelis were spying in OTL. Well, that's as far as I'll take it. What do you think.?
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#7
January 29th, 2004, 10:02 AM
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Britain could hold out against Germany, we were beginning to get organised and we wouldn't have Japan to worry about. A invasion of Europe would be out of the question with no eastern front though it would become a stale mate.
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