WI Mali discovers America?

NapoleonXIV

Banned
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Alcuin said:
Haroun ibn Battuta described the Canaries current over 100 years before Columbus. Although ibn Battuta was no sailor, he had the story from the Sultan of Mali who said that his predecessor had never returned from an expedition to find out what was on the other side of the Atlantic, despite having heard of this fierce current from the sole survivors of a similar expedition.

The African Kingdoms were very powerful at this time. WI America was discovered by black muslims from the Sahara in the 1290's rather than white Christians from Europe in 1492
 

corourke

Donor
What kind of boats did they have? I have actually been looking for information on this, the best I could find indicated that they sailed on 'war canoes', huge hollowed out trees that fit 50 - 80 men. They were restricted to coastal waters, I think.

Did they have sails? The war canoe is pretty similar to a longboat and perhaps that would be enough to get to Brazil.
 

Alcuin

Banned
What kind of boats did they have? I have actually been looking for information on this, the best I could find indicated that they sailed on 'war canoes', huge hollowed out trees that fit 50 - 80 men. They were restricted to coastal waters, I think.

Did they have sails? The war canoe is pretty similar to a longboat and perhaps that would be enough to get to Brazil.

Mali was an Islamic country and in close contact with Morocco. By the end of the thirteenth century, the Moroccans were using vessels pretty similar to those of Spain and Portugal. This was before the invention of the Caravel though so if they were to cross the Ocean successfully, it would take a great deal of luck. I don't say it would be impossible for the Mandingo to cross the Atlantic at its narrowest point but it would be difficult.

ibn Battuta wrote of a thousand ship expedition. Ships in those days were about a third the capacity of Columbus's ships so if ibn Battuta was not exaggerating, His was a bigger expedition... but then, the Mandingo would land in Northeastern Brazil. They'd be in pretty poor fettle and probably wouldn't feel like going home again. A few thousand Mandingo could easily get lost in Brazil. It's possible that, even if they had made the crossing, there would be no evidence and no consequences.
 
Mali was an Islamic country and in close contact with Morocco. By the end of the thirteenth century, the Moroccans were using vessels pretty similar to those of Spain and Portugal. This was before the invention of the Caravel though so if they were to cross the Ocean successfully, it would take a great deal of luck. I don't say it would be impossible for the Mandingo to cross the Atlantic at its narrowest point but it would be difficult.

ibn Battuta wrote of a thousand ship expedition. Ships in those days were about a third the capacity of Columbus's ships so if ibn Battuta was not exaggerating, His was a bigger expedition... but then, the Mandingo would land in Northeastern Brazil. They'd be in pretty poor fettle and probably wouldn't feel like going home again. A few thousand Mandingo could easily get lost in Brazil. It's possible that, even if they had made the crossing, there would be no evidence and no consequences.

Are you talking about the dhow? From what I know, the Spanish/Portuguese caravel was essentially a copy/outgrowth of the Moroccan dhow. I think it would have been possible with dhows - they were (are, actually, they're still in use today) really sturdy vessels.
 
The transatlantic current being mentioned is pretty strong, but its move predominately in one direction - east to west. So it would be fairly easy to get from Europe or Northern Africa to the Caribbean, but getting back would be a little more difficult.

Can't see the Mali doing very much if they came across the Atlantic.
 
The caravel was a combination: It had rectangular sails like traditional European ships (cogs, Viking ships), but also triangular lanteen sails like Arab ships. A good combination.
 
Best case scenario:

Mansa Abubakari II of Mali relinquishes the throne in order to lead an expedition across the Atlantic. He garners a massive fleet and makes the journey, landing at Recife, Brazil. He founds a settlement there called "Boure Bambouk".

Boure Bambouk gets off to a rough start, with many settlers dying. Abubakari makes an appeal to his brother Mansa Musa in Timbuktu to aid his fledgling colony. He makes friends with the local Tupi tribes, who eventually express interest in Islam when Old World diseases hit. American crops are brought back to Africa, and vice versa.

Over time the waves of African settlers stop pouring in as Mali and Boure Bambouk drift apart. A standardized Tupi dialect becomes the linga franca as settlers and indigenous people communicate and trade. Muslim Tupi people move into Boure Bambouk, settling into permanent villages paying tribute to the capital. The agricultural society grows at a steady pace across northeastern Brazil. Even the ruling lineage of Abubakari becomes heavily mixed as he and his decendants take the daughters of native cheiftains as wives. By the end of the century, the civilization is essentially a creole Native American one rather than an African one, albeit with an Islamic West African base and a strong dose of African genetic heritage.

Sailors and merchants from Boure Bambouk come across other parts of the Americas, bringing Old World diseases, knowledge, and technology to Mesoamerica, Peru, and the Caribbean. New crops promote even further population growth in Boure Bambouk. Bamboukian cultural influence spreads further along the Brazil coast and into the Caribbean, including the very modified, creole version of Islam infused with indigenous beliefs. For the Aztecs, Mayans, and Incas, Islam does not immediately take hold but over the next few decades Muslims became a growing minority.

The Portuguese are the first to come across the New World as they stumble upon the transatlantic trade from West Africa. They find very loosely Islamic societies that are in the late stages of recovery and are too strong to be outright conquered and assimilated. The Spanish and the Portuguese make their own trading posts and eventually establish protectorates over the countries. South America is divided between two major kingdoms: Boure Bambouk and Tawantinsuyu, colonized by the Portuguese and the Spanish respectively.
 
(nice scenario pa_dutch)
But why would they want to do anything with this information? What possible gain and/or benefitcould they gather from exploring/settling/conquering the lands across the sea? Northwest brazil is rather dry and uninteresting, filled with forests that when cut down don't yield yams or rice after a few years, hostile natives, no gold, no silver, nada, zip, zilch. The likely thing to happen is for them to include it on maps and then forget about it. The portugese only became interested because there ships had to pass through and needed a stop point.
 
Well, according to the legends Abubakari II just wanted to explore. Maybe he was having a mid-life crisis and just wanted a change of pace?
 

Alcuin

Banned
Are you talking about the dhow? From what I know, the Spanish/Portuguese caravel was essentially a copy/outgrowth of the Moroccan dhow. I think it would have been possible with dhows - they were (are, actually, they're still in use today) really sturdy vessels.

The Dhow is used in the Red Sea and East Africa, the Moroccan ship was similar but there was a lot of cross fertilisation with Venetian, Turkish and Portuguese vessels. I have no idea what they were called.
 

Alcuin

Banned
Well, according to the legends Abubakari II just wanted to explore. Maybe he was having a mid-life crisis and just wanted a change of pace?
That's what ibn Battuta says, although he doesn't actually USE the term, "Midlife Crisis".
 
Resurrecting this one. I was going to do a thread on Abubakari II, but then found it already exists.

Suppose Abubakari II had access to some Moroccan sailing technology and established a colony in the Americas, I think the term the Columbian Exchange would be replaced with the Atlantic Exchange since the process of animal and crop transfer would be underway from 1312 rather than 1492.

The Mali settlers could bring steel, horses, cattle, chicken, sheep, goat and disease while taking back to West Africa the American crops of maize and manoic which caused the African population explosion centuries later IOTL. Perhaps they could also benefit from terra preta. West African crops like sorghum, millet, fonio, bambara and hausa groundnuts, black-eyed peas, African rice, and kola would go the other way.

When Columbus reaches the Carribean he would find a much less populated world that was also technologically more sophisticated. Meanwhile the Portugese would find West Africa more populated with a significant sailing fleet, and perhaps having such export goods as cocoa and tobacco.
 
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If such a settlement were established I think a good argument could be made that it would remain connected to Africa. With an abundant supply of virgin timber the Africans could develop the large ships required for frequent trans-atlantic travel, and they would have the incentive to do so, not just for trade purposes, but also in order to make the Haj. We may well see West Africans colonize much of the New World before the Europeans know what's going on. A prosperous, transatlantic Mali empire could trade with India and China much more easily than Europe, and might even develop firearms before the Europeans.
 

whitecrow

Banned
If such a settlement were established I think a good argument could be made that it would remain connected to Africa. With an abundant supply of virgin timber the Africans could develop the large ships required for frequent trans-atlantic travel, and they would have the incentive to do so, not just for trade purposes, but also in order to make the Haj. We may well see West Africans colonize much of the New World before the Europeans know what's going on. A prosperous, transatlantic Mali empire could trade with India and China much more easily than Europe, and might even develop firearms before the Europeans.
Could it result in West Africa becomeing industrialized before Europe?
 
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