Napoleon Killed shortly after Tilsit
- Thread starter Glass Onion
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NapoleonXIV
Banned
He is succeeded by Talleyrand, who many say engineered the assassination but this has never been proven. Talleyrand mollifies or abrogates many of the harsh terms of the Peace of Tilsit, ensuring Prussia as a loyal ally of France in the years to come.
How does Tallyrand deal with England? Is he able to end the Franco British Conflict? If So how does a long lasting Napoleonic Empire effect European history down the road?
Max Sinister
Banned
Napoleon would rather be succeeded by Joseph, even if Talleyrand may hold the real power.
In that case who would hold the real power Tallyrand or Joseph and how would that person deal with England?
I sincerely doubt Joseph would be anything but a figurehead, based upon his 'reigns' as King of Naples and then Spain.
IF ( and that's a big if ) Talleyrand is the man behind the throne ( rather than a coterie of Marshalls and/or other politicians ), then he will offer concessions to Uk to get peace. Definitely and of blocus and concessions on trade ( all the french empire open to british goods, with reduced tariff or maybe none for a time ), likely on colonies, possibly on land not annexed to france ( confederation of the rhine comes to mind, as do ionian ( sp? ) islands, Istia and Dalmatia ) and, if absolutely necessary, some slight concessions on lands recently annexed to France in North Italy ( ie, maybe the 1805 borders can be abandonned in favor of the 1802 ones ).
But the last items are only a last contingency and Talleyrand will try to get a lasting peace while giving away as little as possible ( as long as it is a true peace ). He will face to much internal opposition if he gives away too much.
Don't forget that at this point, the british showing on land has not been great and that the french have not entered Spain ( and are not likely to ITTL! ). Without the bleeding ulcer of Spain and with the blocus removed, Russia will not attack France and Austria will not dare to ( Prussia is removed from the great power game at this point ). So Uk will have difficulties refusing the peace.
The problems, will be, IMO, the titles of Joseph and Louis. They were respectively kings of the two Sicilies and of Holland at this point. I see no problem with Joseph renoncing his title in exchange for peace; he just became emperor and did renonce that title when he became king of Spain OTL. Louis is more of a problem. He was quite fond of his subjects ( and they of him ), so much that he actually defied his brother Napoleon over this ( which is why Napoleon later annexed holland OTL ). SO he won't want to give up his title. OTOH, it's going to be very difficult to get UK to accept this, esp as Louis is heir after Joseph sons ( he didn't have any OTL but here.... ). I think it may go, with enougth concessions on other point and no real hope in the war against France.
IF ( and that's a big if ) Talleyrand is the man behind the throne ( rather than a coterie of Marshalls and/or other politicians ), then he will offer concessions to Uk to get peace. Definitely and of blocus and concessions on trade ( all the french empire open to british goods, with reduced tariff or maybe none for a time ), likely on colonies, possibly on land not annexed to france ( confederation of the rhine comes to mind, as do ionian ( sp? ) islands, Istia and Dalmatia ) and, if absolutely necessary, some slight concessions on lands recently annexed to France in North Italy ( ie, maybe the 1805 borders can be abandonned in favor of the 1802 ones ).
But the last items are only a last contingency and Talleyrand will try to get a lasting peace while giving away as little as possible ( as long as it is a true peace ). He will face to much internal opposition if he gives away too much.
Don't forget that at this point, the british showing on land has not been great and that the french have not entered Spain ( and are not likely to ITTL! ). Without the bleeding ulcer of Spain and with the blocus removed, Russia will not attack France and Austria will not dare to ( Prussia is removed from the great power game at this point ). So Uk will have difficulties refusing the peace.
The problems, will be, IMO, the titles of Joseph and Louis. They were respectively kings of the two Sicilies and of Holland at this point. I see no problem with Joseph renoncing his title in exchange for peace; he just became emperor and did renonce that title when he became king of Spain OTL. Louis is more of a problem. He was quite fond of his subjects ( and they of him ), so much that he actually defied his brother Napoleon over this ( which is why Napoleon later annexed holland OTL ). SO he won't want to give up his title. OTOH, it's going to be very difficult to get UK to accept this, esp as Louis is heir after Joseph sons ( he didn't have any OTL but here.... ). I think it may go, with enougth concessions on other point and no real hope in the war against France.
An offshoot of this is if they manage to achieve this peace and thats a big if. What about Wellington - he dosen't appear the big war time person anymore. Also he won't beat Boney in the 100 days.
That'll be a big what if - What if Wellington and Napoleon had ever fought, who would have won
That'll be a big what if - What if Wellington and Napoleon had ever fought, who would have won
Susano
Banned
Brother.
In any case, Nassau-Prange had been compensated already. With minor territories, yes, and they would love to regain the Netherlands, but I cant see the coalition powers getting too upset about just Holland.
Who?
OH, that obscure general from the colonies?
No question. The emperor was supreme on the battlefield.
NB : OTL royal parliament issued a declaration 'Napoleon marchera dans l'histoire à l'image d'Alexandre et de Cesar '. Can you imagine what his reputation would be ITTL? He would be undefeated on the battlefield; The big WI would be What if Napoleon had not been assasinated? Would he have conquered India? ( a bit like Alexander WI and Rome, OTL )?
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In this instance you remember wrong.
Napoleon's father was named Charles-Marie ( and died in 1785 ).
Louis was the third brother of napoleon ( he had 4 ). Louis was also the ( supposed ) father of Louis-Napoleon Bonapartes ( aka Napoleon III ), which may be why you made a confusion.
He was also supposidly Boneys favourite brother, despite what he did because Boney had helped to bring him up
Faeelin
Banned
OTL, In August of 1806, Talleyrand and the Earl of Yarmouth (Lord Lauderdale replaced him) negotiated a potential peace treaty. In it, Britain agreed to recognize Joseph as the King of Naples, Louis as the King of Holland, the Kingdom of Etruria, enlarged Bavaria, Wurttemberg, the grand duke of Baden, and presumably the Confederation of the Rhine. I say presumably because it doesn't mention it, but it happened in 1805, a year before the treaty.
The Dutch colonies, except for the Cape, would be returned to holland, and the British would withdraw from Sicily. Talleyrand promised that England coud keep Malta, and that the King of Naples would receive the Balearic islands as compensation, while the Brits would get Hanover back.
So.... does France get as generous an offer with Boney dead? I'm inclined to say yes, but open to other opinions.
The Dutch colonies, except for the Cape, would be returned to holland, and the British would withdraw from Sicily. Talleyrand promised that England coud keep Malta, and that the King of Naples would receive the Balearic islands as compensation, while the Brits would get Hanover back.
So.... does France get as generous an offer with Boney dead? I'm inclined to say yes, but open to other opinions.
With Boney dead then Britain might push for a slightly less generous offer but would let it slide in return for peace if they have to wait for to long for an answer, get jumpy or somthing
Faeelin
Banned
But who would back Britain?
Russia? Why? Tilsit pretty much gives it what it wants, especially in this TL. If anything I expect a Franco-Russian alliance to dominate Europe, regardless of Britain's wishes.
Prussia? Perhaps; but it's a French satellite at this stage of the game.