Jewish China

I just thought of it, and I wonder if that could be possible.

(Are random historical thoughts the basis of this forum?)
 

Cherico

Banned
first of all there were jews in china from ancent times to present
day
shanghai was a haven for jews during the holocoust.
So if you mean a much larger jewish comunity then its very doable
just have a few escape a russian pogrom and have a charismatic
rabbi who isnt aganst conversion and you can get a large number
of jews in a space of a few hundred years.
But making all of china jewish is going to require a major changes
at near ASB levels
 

Keenir

Banned
first of all there were jews in china from ancent times to present

*nods*

But making all of china jewish is going to require a major changes
at near ASB levels

it would probably be easier to get a Jewish dynasty in China, than to turn the entire peasantry Jewish.
(a tribe or two, sure; but doubtful the entire populace)
 
I don't know just how plausible the following scenario is (I apologize in advance if it turns too ASB). But I think it's one of the few remotely plausible ways to turn most of China Jewish.

Most of it was also taken/inspired from a short story by Judith Tarr called "Measureless to Men" from Harry Turtledove's Alternate Generals III.

POD: c. 1142: The girl who will one day be known as "the Honored Deborah" in Eastern Jewish mythology is born to a family of Jewish merchants in Bukhara, in the Kara-Khanid Khanate.

c.1143-1160: It is thought by modern historians that Deborah somehow receives a detailed instruction on the history and rituals of the Jewish people from a relative, possibly her father. What is known (from records in Chengdu and Karakorum), is that in the year 1160 (by the calendars of Christendom), Deborah is taken by Qarluq slavers while on a journey with her family on the Silk Road and brutally raped in the process, to the point where she was, “left as bereft as the Taklamakan and as vengeful as a winter storm” (to quote the 1227 document The Secret History of the Mongols). It is speculated by historians in Nanjing and Kaifeng that this is when she swears revenge on the Qarluq.

c.1162: Temujin, the who will one day strike terror into the world around him as Judah, Ghengis Khan, is born to Yesugei, the leader of Kiyad, in Mongolia, and a vassal of Ong Khan of the Kerait tribe, of the Borjigin Clan.

c.1161-1170: Deborah is sold to a plethora of masters, before finally becoming the property of Dei Seichen of the Onggirat tribe in 1170. He also happens to be the father of Borte, the future wife of Temujin.

c. 1170 onwards: For his part, Dei Seichen treats Deborah with indifference when it comes to her religion, allowing her to practice it openly.

One of her main tasks is to look after young Borte. For her part, Borte becomes curious about Deborah’s strange religion. Seeing how Borte is betrothed the son of a local chief, Deborah takes the opportunity to tell her the story of her people and the enduring strength of her people’s Covenant with the Lord God. She tells Borte many stories from the Five Books of Moses during this time as well.

Borte is very intrigued, especially after Deborah tells her how Judaism, despite suffering under tyrannies and great empires ranging from Babylon to Rome, has survived long past their fall.

It’s unknown precisely when Borte declared her conversion to Judaism. Regardless, as various historians have established, she was already practicing her interpretation of the rituals Deborah passed to her by the time of her marriage to Temujin. Records indicate that Deborah had passed away by this time (from an unknown cause).

While all this is going on, Temujin becomes estranged from his tribe and is abandoned with his family to the wilderness, eking out a living on the steppe.

c.1182: Temujin is enslaved by his former tribe; he eventually manages to escape with a sympathetic guard who would later father his general, Chilaun.

c.1188-1200: As previously arranged by his father, Temujin marries Borte. Borte tries to tell him of the power of the “Lord of the Skies and Earth,” but he scoffs at this strange philosophy that she’s apparently trying to teach him. Borte merely tells him that the Lord will lead him to his destiny by any means necessary, as The Secret History of the Mongols tells us.

Around 1190 Temujin forges a small confederation from his supporters and family of Mongols.

c.1200:

Borte is kidnapped in a raid by the Merkit tribe. In sheer desperation afterwards, Temujin prays to Borte’s “Lord of the Skies and Earth” for his rescue attempt to be successful, and for her to be safe.

With aid from his friend (and future rival) Jamuqa and Ong Khan, along with 20,000 Kerait warriors from his father's blood brother Toghrul, Temujin rescues Borte and destroys the kidnappers. On the way to rescue her, Temujin later tells Borte, he had a fitful dream in which a “Mighty Spirit” told him that his prayer had been successful and his attempt would succeed (though modern day scholars stress that he was under a great deal of duress at the time, and therefore it would be expectant for him to have such a dream; naturally the faithful refuse to even comprehend such a thought).

Borte tells him that it was the Lord God speaking to him. Then, she tells him that she knew all along his attempt would succeed, as the Lord provides for those under his Covenant.

This is all that’s needed to convince Temujin; he declares his conversion to serve the “Lord of the Skies and Earth” until the day he passes on.

Temujin manages to convert Ong Khan to this new religion, along with his brothers—Khaser, Khajiun, and Temuge—his mother Hoelun, his sister Temulin, and his half brothers Bekhter and Belgutei, along with the bulk of the Kerait tribe and the Borjigin Clan. Jamuqa, however, refuses to convert, causing a rift between the two former friends that will never be healed, ending their Blood Brotherhood.

Temujin also moves his followers to convert to his new religion, after ensuring that his tale of the "miracle" spreads far and wide. It’s during this time that the Yassa Code (whose variations govern much of the east to this day) comes into being for the first time. It’s likely that Borte had a heavy hand in their design, as it incorporates what she remembers of the Ten Commandments into the Code.

Borte has by now, according to The Secret History of the Mongols informed her husband of the existence of the original “People of the Covenant” to the west. Temujin vows to one day find these communities and bring them under his protection.

But first he has to deal with Jamuqa, who has now become Gur Khan (universal ruler) in his own right, a direct challenge to his authority. Combined with his defiance of Temujin’s efforts to spread Judaism, he raises the ire of Temujin.

Although he defeats Temujin in several battles, Jamuqa makes the fatal mistake of encouraging ethnic divisions in his forces, while Temujin uses every opportunity to unify his forces by allowing promotion based on merit and spreading the faith in the Lord of Hosts. Combined with aid from Toghrul--who unlike IOTL does not side with Jamuqa, as he’s more influenced by Temujin’s new faith even than his own son—it doesn’t take long before Jamuqa is captured and executed by Temujin, having spurned one last offer of forgiveness (and conversion).

1205: By this time, Temujin has brought the formerly various Keraits, Uyghurs, Merkits, Naimans, and Mongols under his control, ensured the diffusion of Judaism amongst them, and having vanquished his rival Jamuqa, declares that he has taken the name new name Judah (after the son of Jacob), and the new title Warrior of the One God. He declares to his soldiers that God has taken them into His Covenant, and that it is the duty, as soldiers of the Lord of Hosts, to conquer the world and bring it into the Covenant. The Mongol Empire is born.

1206-1211: After a brutal series of invasions, the Western Xia Dynasty acknowledges Judah Khan as their overlord. By 1211 the Dynasty’s old lands have been absorbed into the Mongol Empire.

1212-1215: Judah subjugates the Jin Dynasty, concluding with the sack of their capital of Yanjing.

In his wake from the two major conquests, Judah leaves his son Chatagai to implement the Yassa Law in the newly conquered lands. The first mass conversions to Judaism happen during this time. However, Chatagai is forced to crush several revolts as he tries to purge the lands of all pagan influences, which he finds almost impossible. However, he does succeed in establishing the first Houses of the Host in the major urban centers of the former Xia and Jin.

Of course, historians emphasize how chaotic the situation must have been; after all, Judah Khan wasn’t exactly planning to cross the rivers by feeling the stones when it came to religious worship.

Meanwhile, Judah hears that the surviving Jin government has reassembled in Kaifeng, the same city with a strange community of people who came from far away and who believe in one God. Feeling like the Lord of Hosts is leading him on, Judah decides to take his forces to Kaifeng....
~~~~~

Comments? Too ASB? This certainly isn't my greatest area of expertise. :eek:
 
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Somehow I fear that the Jews will become very unpopular because of that. OTOH, they now have the biggest homeland on Earth. :D
 
Excellent TL, Davo! :D It was quite an interesting read and I hoping that you could expand on it.With my knowledge of history around that period quite spotty, I could not judge whether it'd would plausible or implausible, but ASB suggests overwhelmingly powerful divine external forces, this doesn't happen, simply religious conversion takes place, very good.

But very shifty, very Jewish.:p:D
 
Somehow I fear that the Jews will become very unpopular because of that. OTOH, they now have the biggest homeland on Earth. :D

I figured that if Judaism was to survive in China in the long term, it would differ quite a bit from the Diaspora in the West (i.e. assuming more elements from Confucianism and the like). Not to mention Judaism is never going to be practised by all elements of the population (especially at first).
 

HueyLong

Banned
Sounds believable to me David. The Mongols were basically a blank slate when it came to religion. A big portion of it was charisma and action, with few entrenched beliefs. Thats how Genghis became a god, and Buddhism later co- opted him and the other Khans.

Although I doubt Deboran Judaism will be recognizable to many Jews even in the first generation.

Oh yeah, and circumcisions may be hard for a warrior people to accept. I bet that would be hedged away.

Oh, and while I'm certain they are trite and over-used, what of the title Lion of Judah and of the name and myth of Samson? Might Shimshun become a common name?
 
Excellent TL, Davo! :D It was quite an interesting read and I hoping that you could expand on it.With my knowledge of history around that period quite spotty, I could not judge whether it'd would plausible or implausible, but ASB suggests overwhelmingly powerful divine external forces, this doesn't happen, simply religious conversion takes place, very good.

But very shifty, very Jewish.:p:D

Thanks! :D

Of course, I included "commets" from future historians trying to offer more secular explanations for Temujin's embrace of Judaism.
 
Sounds believable to me David. The Mongols were basically a blank slate when it came to religion. A big portion of it was charisma and action, with few entrenched beliefs. Thats how Genghis became a god, and Buddhism later co- opted him and the other Khans.

Although I doubt Deboran Judaism will be recognizable to many Jews even in the first generation.

Oh yeah, and circumcisions may be hard for a warrior people to accept. I bet that would be hedged away.

Oh, and while I'm certain they are trite and over-used, what of the title Lion of Judah and of the name and myth of Samson? Might Shimshun become a common name?

Gracias.

That's true. Visiting Jews from Central Asia or even the Middle East are going to be quite surprised, to say nothing of what visiting Jews from Europe are going to think.

And I like that title. Mind if I use it later?

In regards to circumcision, maybe the Yassa Code states that only the priests to the Lord of Hosts have to undergo that (as a sign of their office)?
 

HueyLong

Banned
Which title- Deboran Judaism or Lion of Judah?

And yes, I think you would have to limit circumcision to a select few. Maybe zealous warriors undergo the process later in life, but it remains mostly confined to the clergy.
 
Which title- Deboran Judaism or Lion of Judah?

And yes, I think you would have to limit circumcision to a select few. Maybe zealous warriors undergo the process later in life, but it remains mostly confined to the clergy.

Well both. I actually borrowed the backstory of the "Honored Deborah" from Measurless to Men--though it's mentioned in the story that she's a mentor to a young Temujin.

I thought it would be more believable if she influenced his future wife, then Borte would lead her husband to this new faith.
 

HueyLong

Banned
Deboran Judaism was just the first descriptor that popped into my head, and I didn't make the title Lion of Judah.

It will be interesting to see how the eventual Mongols do in eastern Europe and the Middle East, where there are large Jewish populations.
 
Deboran Judaism was just the first descriptor that popped into my head, and I didn't make the title Lion of Judah.

It will be interesting to see how the eventual Mongols do in eastern Europe and the Middle East, where there are large Jewish populations.

Indeed. The possibilities for cross-cultural interactions will be quite facinating.
 

maverick

Banned
Oh, no! another evil Jewish conspiracy!
To the Mel Gibson-mobile!

Now, some jewish provinces with jewish warlords I could believe, not to mention that it would provide interesting possibilities during the, lets' say, the end of the Qings, the Boxer rebellion, and the civil war of the 20th century.
 
Part II

1216 onwards: Judah marches into Kaifeng, which he orders his army to leave completely intact. He comes to the synagogue of the Kaifeng Jews (built in 1163) and meets the adherents of the faith which the locals refer to as (as modern day translations tell us)—tiao jin jiao—the religion which removes the sinew.

Thus begins Kaifeng’s transformation into a focal point of Eastern Jewry (which will come to be called Deboran Judaism by the Jews of the West). Judah instructs the keepers of the Kaifeng synagogue to help in the implementation of the Yassa Code, and specifically in bringing the pagans of the city into the Covenant of the Lord. The Jews of Kaifeng have little choice but to obey, as stories of Judah’s bloody wars of conquest have long reached their ears.

The Kaifeng Synagogue also begins its transformation into a Rabbinical School during this time; the first students ironically will include the eldest sons of the surviving Jin aristocrats (having seen how their place in this new society is secured by converting to this new religion). Another student will be Judah’s eldest son Jochi, who will dedicate the rest of his life to religious study and proselytizing to the unconverted of Kaifeng.

1218-1220: Urged by Borte (who remembers the painful story of Deborah’s humiliation at the hands of the Qarluq), Judah Khan invades and conquers the Kara-Khitan Khanate.

During this latest round of conquests, Judah comes into contact with Deborah’s people—the Jews of Bukhara have heart rumors of a conqueror from the east that called himself “Judah, Warrior of God,” but now they get to see him in the flesh.

However, the rabbis of Bukhara express their reluctance to begin converting the gentiles of the surrounding areas, as it goes against their religious doctrine.

This begins a serious rift in the Jewish community; other Jews believe that Judah, and the circumstances that led to the embrace of their faith simply means that God has not forgotten them, and that their faith is destined to rule the world. A few prominent Bukharan Jews agree to help bringing the gentiles into the Covenant. Bukhara itself will soon become the center of a vibrant Jewish community, as many Mongols will also settle there over time.

Of course, the Jewish leaders to raise the loudest objections to the Mongol practise of mass conversions find themselves dispatched for their trouble. The other objectors quickly take a vow of silence on the subject, forced by the Mongols to admit in public that, "it is the Lord's will that Judah, Warrior of God should bring the nations of the world into our Covenant" (As The Secret History of the Mongols and The Five Books of Judah tell us today).

And the Mongols begin implementing the Yassa Code in the former Khanate, forcing countless conversions, often at sword point. As in the former Xia and Jin states, the local aristocrats are among the first to convert, so long as it guarantees them positions of power in the new order. The Mongols are forced to crush several revolts from the Muslim population during this time, cracking down harshly and forcing countless unrepentant Muslims into exile. Many flee into the neighboring Khwarezmid Empire, where their stories of the Mongol destruction of their religion send the Shah and his governors into outrage. The Shah begins planning a strike against these enemies of Islam, and begin cracking down on the local Jewish communities, fearing them to be foreign agents.

The troubles of policing such an unruly conquest forces Judah to delay his plans to conquer the Khwarezmid Empire. After a time of prayer and meditation, he decides to spend time consolidating his realm.

However, he won’t get long to rest.

1220 onwards: In the former Khanate many Muslim converts, along with surviving Buddhists and Nestorian Christians, continue to practice their faith in secret, while professing devote Judaism in public.

A select group of Bukharan Jews are requested by Jochi all the way from Kaifeng to assist in the instruction of more Chinese rabbis to help spread the Covenant as far and wide as possible in the former lands of the Jin. The first Chinese rabbis will begin translating the torahs that the Bukharen Jews bring them into their own language. Many more Bukharan Jews are sent to Judah's court to help in the further refining of Jewish culture, where they will enjoy the patronage of Borte herself.
 
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HueyLong

Banned
I almost picked up Alternate Generals III today, but didn't because you're already doing a Jewish Genghis.

Absolutely awesome.
 
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