Roman Ireland

[Diamond]

WI the Romans, for whatever reason, established a presence in Ireland (Hibernia)?

-What resources or strategic value (if any) would Hibernia have to draw the Romans?

-When is the most likely time period for a conquest? And who would be the one(s) to make it happen?

-How much of Hibernia is likely to be 'romanized'? IMO, it wouldn't be much, maybe along the southern and eastern coasts, leaving the north and most of the interior to the hundreds of native chiefdoms.

-If Hibernia is Romanized, does it follow that even more of Britain would be under Roman control, to better facilitate probes into Hibernia? Less? The same?

-Depending on the date Hibernia is Romanized, how does the rest of the Empire develop? Do parts conquered in OTL remain free, due to troops being sent north to the Isles?

-Even if only a relatively small portion of the island is Romanized, does it do more to normalize future relations between Britannia and Hibernia? With a common legacy of Roman conquest, then Roman learning, culture, architecture, etc., and with regular trade and contact between the islands, is there less conflict between Irish and British?

Any thoughts?

[Straha]

all these things depend on how romanized it is.

[basileus]

The Romans DID establish themselves in Hibernia for a short time, even if the Irish don't seem enthusiast about that. It seems that in a period I don't remember exactly, however between Trajan's and Antoninus Pius's reigns, a legion encampment and a trade station existed near the site of Dublin, and this has been proved by archaeological evidences. It was probably a sort of Roman Hong Kong, or it was described in such way. That is: the Roma didn't control the interior, but had full control on the coasts and a military bas, whih was abandoned probably under Marcus Aurelius.
So Hibernia was never actually conquered (no news of attempts to conquest nor in Roma nor in later Irish writers), but nevertheless saw a sizable Roman presence fr some years or decades.
Now, a Romanized Ireland would probably not have been so different from the one we know. The Romans had little interest in colonizing, so the language itself would have remained largely the same. Maybe a positive legacy would have been a sense of unity under a single sovereign; but, as we see in Britain, this means nothing, The Celtic heritage always brought to fragmentation and struggles.
In conclusion, even if the Romans stayed in Ireland for three centuries, very little would have changed up there.

[DuQuense]

One of the main things Rome did was build Roads. If Rome had ocuppied the Winter Isle for 300 years it would have a unifing road system. Devolopment follows transportation. Idenity follows devolopment.

So in 410 the one legion in Erie is withdrawn along with one of the two in Britian. they both get chewed up like the British one IOTL. One more legion in Europe would not have made much diff.

The Romans leave behind a Comprehinsive road system, and a sence of Idenity as [Hiberians??] & Christians [no St. Pat in TTL]. along with some well trained Axuillary troops.

During the 400's this Hiberia trades with Britian and they both trade with Contantinople. In the 500's Hiberian soldiers guard the new settlements in Scotland, fight with the British Celts, and join with them against the invading Germanics.

This changes the whole post roman history of the Isles. So i'll stop here.

[DominusNovus]

This also might get Scotland conquered along the way. Maybe. If we wanna be zany, with more Roman activity in the area, they might bump into Iceland sometime. Then, maybe Greenland and the Americas. But thats unlikely. Unless they get better ocean going ships, with is also a possibility with increased activity in the region.

[Landshark]

I came across this a few years back and it's remained one of my favourite timelines. Unfortunately the book seems to be completely ficticious.

http://pages.prodigy.net/aesir/irish.htm

[Knight Of Armenia]

Well, the Irish don't hate the British because of the Romans. It has more to do with the conquests, the deaths, the Famine, the hardships...

Even if the Romans take Ireland, I can't see them "Romanizing" it, unless the Roman Empire itself changes course. At this time, conquests were slowing down, and money was becoming scarcer; more resources were spent on mainland Rome, rather than the distant island colonies. If you somehow have the Romans either fully quell the Germans or Huns, or possibly defeat the Persians, that new flow of capital would surely trickle down to Britain and Ireland, and do much to further the Romanization of the two.

[Diamond]

Arise, dead thread! Arise and gain new life!

Any new thoughts on this one? I thought it had possibilities...

[Diamond]

Ahhhh, you guys are no fun.

[DominusNovus]

Originally Posted by Diamond

Ahhhh, you guys are no fun.

sorry.

Ummm...

when the Empire falls (if) the Saxons might have a harder time, with a stronger romano-celtic population to oppose them. King Arthur (analogue) could have most of the British Isles.

[MerryPrankster]

Originally Posted by DominusNovus

sorry.

Ummm...

when the Empire falls (if) the Saxons might have a harder time, with a stronger romano-celtic population to oppose them. King Arthur (analogue) could have most of the British Isles.

Yep--if Ireland was integrated with the rest of Britain, Arthur would have a much larger territory and population base. With all of Ireland to draw on, might he have thrown the Saxons back into the North Sea?

[DuQuense]

Caesar invades England a couple years earlier TOTL. The English aren't as united, and the Romans end up with England and Scotland by 0000.

Early in the first century, Raids and trade pull Rome towards the winter isle.

and by 100 ad they control it.

sometime in the 400's it is abandoned like Britain. leaving behind a road network and a sense of being part of the British isles. and the Roman World

the isles break up into several smaller kingdoms but the idea of a high king over them all remains.

During the next several centuries the Saxons move in disrupting things, and weakening the Roman idea.

In the 9th century Raiding and Settling, the Norse move in, and in 1066 Harold of Norway manages to Conquer the whole Isles. He establishes the kingdom of Norway/Britain, Sundering the last ties to the Roman/Mediterranean world.

Thro the Kingdom would split two generations later the resulting united north sea Kingdom of Britain. would never again be conquered.

[Hapsburg]

eventually the Irish invent whisky or equivalent, and thier culture collapses into bar fights and overpopulation. whatever the original thingy, it will end up the same way, alchohol seems to do that...

[PJ Norris]

HMmmmmmm - except forDuQuense everyone has forgotten those darn Vikings. The Vikings would seriously disrupt things, taking over all of the major seaports (as in RTL) and eventually take most of the island and carve out a small kingdom on the east coast like Normandy. Eventually Viking Ireland is overrun by the locals led by a powerful Catholic king. The Catholic Island Empire, battle hardened and up to date with the modern world thanks to its contacts to France is never conquered by the English (the Brits try but never seem to do it like the French in 1066).

I'm not too well so it might be just like the real thing or like the other TLs.

[DominusNovus]

Originally Posted by PJ Norris

HMmmmmmm - except forDuQuense everyone has forgotten those darn Vikings. The Vikings would seriously disrupt things, taking over all of the major seaports (as in RTL) and eventually take most of the island and carve out a small kingdom on the east coast like Normandy. Eventually Viking Ireland is overrun by the locals led by a powerful Catholic king. The Catholic Island Empire, battle hardened and up to date with the modern world thanks to its contacts to France is never conquered by the English (the Brits try but never seem to do it like the French in 1066).

I'm not too well so it might be just like the real thing or like the other TLs.

Actually, he does. He specifically has the Norse invade.

[Hermanubis]

Originally Posted by Diamond

Arise, dead thread! Arise and gain new life!

Any new thoughts on this one? I thought it had possibilities...

Ah, Thread Necromancy. They really ought to teach a class on how to do it properly… (Then maybe some of my best threads wouldn’t be stillborn )

[MerryPrankster]

Would the Saxons of that period be able to conquer a Romano-Celtic state that includes England, Ireland, Wales, and possibly Scotland?

[DominusNovus]

Originally Posted by Matt Quinn

Would the Saxons of that period be able to conquer a Romano-Celtic state that includes England, Ireland, Wales, and possibly Scotland?

I personally don't think so.