What does the culture of New Netherlands look like?

[Hobelhouse]

If the New Netherlands had survived, what would its culture look like today? Would it still be associated with the Netherlands or would it have won its independence? Would it be an industrial power or be mainly agrarian? At the time New Netherlands was lost to the English, I beleive fur trading was the most profitable industry, with the patroon farming on the side.

[pa_dutch]

I imagine it would look like a Dutch-speaking analog of the Canada or the United States, with a very secular, liberal, multicultural population speaking a unique Dutch dialect. It would probably have achieved its independence from the Netherlands and will have developed a distinctive nationality similar but seperate from the motherland, paralleling the modern relationship between American and British society.

[Doug M.]

New Netherlands would probably have an English-speaking majority well before the end of the 18th century. It's surrounded by Anglophone colonies; the Dutch population is small, and not being reinforced by large waves of colonists from the homeland.

This is pretty much what happened in South Africa's Cape Colony: the more numerous English colonists took over, and the Dutch migrated north in the Great Trek. This was possible because the Dutch in South Africa were mostly small farmers and ranchers -- people who could easily pull up stakes. In New Netherlands they were mostly patroons, traders, and merchants. So a *Great Trek to Illinois seems unlikely (although it's an interesting idea).

Anyway, I think an independent New Netherlands is pretty unlikely -- it was just too desirable a colony. It sat in a key location, controlled the most important port on the eastern seaboard, and split the English colonies in two. Sooner or later, the English would sweep in and take it.


Doug M.

[pompejus]

Originally Posted by Doug M.

New Netherlands would probably have an English-speaking majority well before the end of the 18th century. It's surrounded by Anglophone colonies; the Dutch population is small, and not being reinforced by large waves of colonists from the homeland.

This would only happen if the colony becomes British at some point, if it stays Dutch it would probably draw enough Dutch, Flemish and German settlers to keep a majority of Dutch speakers.

[HueyLong]

Problem is, the colony never had a Dutch majority.

[pompejus]

Originally Posted by HueyLong

Problem is, the colony never had a Dutch majority.

Did the capecolony had a Dutch majority (before it became British)? I think you can compare the two colonies.

[Flocculencio]

Originally Posted by pompejus

Did the capecolony had a Dutch majority (before it became British)? I think you can compare the two colonies.

Actually it did have a Dutch majority which proved very good at culturally absorbing the French and German Calvinists who emigrated.

I'm not sure if you can compare the two colonies- Kaapstad was run completely as a corporate settlement by the VOC, which is why even in the pre-British period you had lots of voortrekkers. These were basically the free farmers who got fed up with being completely controlled by the Company.

Were the New Netherlands similarly micromanaged or were they more laissez-faire?

[Max Sinister]

Originally Posted by pa_dutch

I imagine it would look like a Dutch-speaking analog of the Canada or the United States, with a very secular, liberal, multicultural population speaking a unique Dutch dialect.

I'm not sure whether it'd be a cultural copy of the Netherlands. The Afrikaaner came from there too, and South Africa wasn't exactly multicultural (in the sense of: they all have equal rights) or liberal.

[Doug M.]

Problem is, New Netherlands was dinky. In 1664 there were about 1600 people in New York/New Amsterdam, and another 7,000-8,000 in the rest of the colony.

By way of comparison, contemporary Boston -- then the largest city in the New World -- had about 3,000 people. Contemporary New England held 40,000-50,000 English colonists, while Virginia had 25,000 - 30,000.

And, again, it's going to be very hard for the English to ignore New Amsterdam. Not only is it a rich prize in its own right, but if they don't take it, the French might.


Doug M.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Max Sinister

I'm not sure whether it'd be a cultural copy of the Netherlands. The Afrikaaner came from there too, and South Africa wasn't exactly multicultural (in the sense of: they all have equal rights) or liberal.

There are two forces in Dutch society, the liberalising, individualistic strand originating from the likes of Arminius and Menno and the Calvinist puritan strand. I suspect that New Netherlands would resemble the weaker of the two in the Netherlands itself.

Remember the Pilgrim fathers stayed in Vlijssingen for several years before deciding to move on to America. Perhaps the same would happen with the Conservative elements of Dutch society, leaving the Netherlands more liberal than it is in OTL, and New Amsterdam as the most Puritan of the American colonies even when it was eventually absorbed.

[pa_dutch]

Originally Posted by Max Sinister

I'm not sure whether it'd be a cultural copy of the Netherlands. The Afrikaaner came from there too, and South Africa wasn't exactly multicultural (in the sense of: they all have equal rights) or liberal.

In some ways it was, considering the Afrikaners absorbed Belgians, French Huguenots, Germans, and smaller amounts of many other groups. Also, the Afrikaners were isolated from the Enlightenment whereas the early United States was very influenced by it.

[Tyr]

A big if there and its impossible to answer just as it is. It could have gone anyway as could the rest of the world.

[pa_dutch]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

There are two forces in Dutch society, the liberalising, individualistic strand originating from the likes of Arminius and Menno and the Calvinist puritan strand. I suspect that New Netherlands would resemble the weaker of the two in the Netherlands itself.

Remember the Pilgrim fathers stayed in Vlijssingen for several years before deciding to move on to America. Perhaps the same would happen with the Conservative elements of Dutch society, leaving the Netherlands more liberal than it is in OTL, and New Amsterdam as the most Puritan of the American colonies even when it was eventually absorbed.

Well, I was under the impression that New Netherlands were pretty liberal in terms of religious tolerance... I've heard that there was a decent-sized Jewish population in New Amsterdam, and even a few Muslims here and there.

[Faeelin]

Originally Posted by Doug M.

New Netherlands would probably have an English-speaking majority well before the end of the 18th century. It's surrounded by Anglophone colonies; the Dutch population is small, and not being reinforced by large waves of colonists from the homeland.

Anyway, I think an independent New Netherlands is pretty unlikely -- it was just too desirable a colony. It sat in a key location, controlled the most important port on the eastern seaboard, and split the English colonies in two. Sooner or later, the English would sweep in and take it.

This is where the Dutch superpower TL comes in.

(How do you do this? Umm... Look over there! A sealion!)

[Faeelin]

Originally Posted by Doug M.

By way of comparison, contemporary Boston -- then the largest city in the New World -- had about 3,000 people. Contemporary New England held 40,000-50,000 English colonists, while Virginia had 25,000 - 30,000.

Hmm. I would've thought that Mexico City or Potosi were larger.

[Doug M.]

Originally Posted by Faeelin

Hmm. I would've thought that Mexico City or Potosi were larger.

D'oh. You're right, of course.


Doug M.