WI the Fatimids conquered Italy instead?

An idea that was actually inspired by a dream: what if the Fatimids, instead of going for Egypt in the late 10th century, made a serious attempt at conquering Italy?

Could they have held on to at least southern and central Italy for a considerable amount of time, and if they could, then what would such a Shi'ite state that is centered in Italy and has undergone strong Italian/post-Roman influences look like?

And what effects would the presence of such a Shi'ite Caliphate in Italy and North Africa have on the surrounding nations?

And what would happen to Egypt if it remains under the (comparatively weak) Ikhshidid dynasty?
 
The Muslim conquest of Sicily began in 827, and the island wasn't fully under Muslim control until the 950's-960's.

Several Sicilian emirs also controlled the coast of Calabria, and somewhere between 850 and 880,
there was an independant emirate centered in Bari in Apulia.

However, in spite of the fact that even Rome itself had become the victim of Saracen raids,
the Muslims appearantly never made a serious attempt at conquering significant parts of Italy.
 
any particular reason? *is curious*

Good question. They did control one of the largest hubs of trade in the Middle East, the Nile. Not to mention access to the Red Sea, beyond that the Indian Ocean a stone's throw away. Why the Fatimids didn't try to capitalize on their successes in Sicily is a mystery. Perhaps the Knights of Malta were restricting trade (or was Malta even under Christian control at this time)?
 
any particular reason? *is curious*

Well, I don't know exactly why they didn't try to conquer Italy, but I think that that's mainly because of
the internal political and religious divisions and conflicts that existed among the Muslims of Ifriqiya during this period.

During this period, aside from Sunni Muslims, there were also large numbers of Khajirites and Shi'ites in the area of Ifriqiya,
and all of these sects had significant religious and political influence in the area.

I guess that that made it rather difficult for any Muslim dynasty to unite the Muslims in Ifriqiya politically.

Good question. They did control one of the largest hubs of trade in the Middle East, the Nile. Not to mention access to the Red Sea, beyond that the Indian Ocean a stone's throw away. Why the Fatimids didn't try to capitalize on their successes in Sicily is a mystery. Perhaps the Knights of Malta were restricting trade (or was Malta even under Christian control at this time)?

The Christian conquest of Malta was in 1127, and was actually after the Norman conquest of Sicily,
so the Knights of Malta couldn't possibly have been a problem at this point.

I think that the two main reasons for the absence of a serious Fatimid attempt to conquer Italy are;
1) soon after the Fatimids took Egypt, they just lost interest in the central Mediterranean,
and 2) in Ifriqiya (and the rest of Africa for that matter) the Shi'a have never been a majority,
and there were quite a few other powerful and influential factions in the area.

The Fatimids could propably have held on to Ifriqiya if they really wanted to.
However, AFAIK they pretty much ignored Ifriqiya and Sicily, and left them in the hands of the local governors and noblemen.

And when the Zirids, the governors of Ifriqiya, officially converted to Sunni Islam and declared their independance from the Fatimids, the Fatimids didn't bother to retake Ifriqiya - they just sent in the Banu Hilal...
 
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You could always play a game of Crusader Kings. It happens quite often there. In all seriousness, while it is theoretically possible for the Fatimids to conquer swathes of Italy, even up to Rome, they would certainly not likely to stay for long, as I am sure that Western Christendom would wage war against them, perhaps ushering in an idea of crusade closer to home. Sicily is one thing, but Rome itself being taken? That would certainly provoke a considerable response.
 
Good question. They did control one of the largest hubs of trade in the Middle East, the Nile. Not to mention access to the Red Sea, beyond that the Indian Ocean a stone's throw away. Why the Fatimids didn't try to capitalize on their successes in Sicily is a mystery. Perhaps the Knights of Malta were restricting trade (or was Malta even under Christian control at this time)?

I would think the Fatimids simply had bigger fish to fry, so if you keep them out of Egypt, they could maintain a more sustained interest in Italy and Southern France. After all, Italy wasn't a bad place, just sort of a poor backwater at the time. The Western Mediterranean was still largely a Muslim lake, though a resurgent Byzantium and the Italian cities of Pisa, Bari and Amalfi were just beginning to nibble away at that control. Still, at this point if an island isn't owned by Muslims it is because they don't care to have it.

Unfortunately for the conquerors, though, I don't think the venture stands much of a chance. By the ninth and tenth centuries, West/Central Europe is politically tied to Rome ireversibly. A Fatimid conquest of Central Italy would bring down a reaction by the Franks. In terms of resources and technology, the Fatimids can probably 'take' the late Carolingians and Ottonians, but you need to keep in mind that their own government is not exactly stable and they are at risk of overthrow or secsession of provinces in the event of a serious defeat, so running big risks is not something they would do over relatively unimportant territory. They had Sicily, Sardinia and some bits of Southern Italy, and were largely content to let the be administered by their vassals. A greater interest would IMO take the shape of more raiding and greater intensity in the petty warfare that defined the frontier zone, not a concerted attempt to conquer the peninsula. Not least because the Qalbids might themselves have taken a dim view of a stronger Fatimid presence in their back yard - just because they were vassals doesn't mean they were happily obedient.
 

Rockingham

Banned
Ok, lets assume they attempt this, eventually much of christendom tries to stop them . In coalition with muslim iberia, they succeed, taking everything south of river po, while all of iberia south of pyrenees is muslim or muslim vassal.
- Stronger Islam this timeline, and if these realms sustained for long enough, muslim rather then christian reformation.
-Presmably Italy splinters in to muslim city states only formally tied to fatimids, and similar to otl italian city states-hubs of trade, culture, and incredibly powerful vis-a-vis the rest of the world for their size.
-If italy isn't majority muslim, their would be a significant chunk of muslims(20%?). I'm thinking concentrated in major cities. Hence, even if reformation starts with christians in italy and iberia, could soon spread to muslims in those areas as well.
-An alliance between whover's ruling or dominating muslim spain and fatimids in likely. T
-the fatimids might take egypt eventually as well(they will be wealthy from taxation of italy), and be focused on east med and lose interest in italy.
-So these states may be all but independant, with the exception that the fatimids tax them. They will probably soon rebel as well, if they get powerful enough.
-Alternately, the fatimids might become itlay centric or be other thrown and replace with italian caliphate(caliphate of rome, anyone?):D In this case might take territories in east med just to secure trade routes.
-Need anyone say it, no real crusades as well, with more christian influence on Islam, so less radical islam:)
 
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Ok, lets assume they attempt this, eventually much of christendom tries to stop them . In coalition with muslim iberia, they succeed, taking everything south of river po, while all of iberia south of pyrenees is muslim or muslim vassal.

I don't think such an alliance is very likely. Neither side liked the other all that much. I don't see the early Fatimids going with the late Umayyads, if only on religious grounds. Also, the Andalusis hold territory well into Switzerland, so they know intimately the logistical difficulties and questionable value of such conquests.

- Stronger Islam this timeline, and if these realms sustained for long enough, muslim rather then christian reformation.

If Italy stays Muslim (rather than just Muslim-dominated), this will shake up history to the point that the Reformation becomes a meaningless concept. But I suspect rather that it would end up like Iberia or Sicily, a Muslim-dominated realm with a mixed Muslim (immigrant and convert), Christian and Jewish population.

-Presmably Italy splinters in to muslim city states only formally tied to fatimids, and similar to otl italian city states-hubs of trade, culture, and incredibly powerful vis-a-vis the rest of the world for their size.

I doubt the second part. Italy's cities managed to leverage their role as Western Christendom's toehold in civilisation into economic dominance over the rest. Integrated into the Muslim world, they would turn from a developing entrepot to an undeveloped area into the underdeveloped periphery of a highly developed polity. Europeans would not come to Italy to study, Italians would head to Cairo, Baghdad and Kairouan instead.

-If italy isn't majority muslim, their would be a significant chunk of muslims(20%?). I'm thinking concentrated in major cities. Hence, even if reformation starts with christians in italy and iberia, could soon spread to muslims in those areas as well.

The first is likely, but there is little evidence that either Christians or Muslims in al-Andalus or Sicily took much interest in each other's religious affairs. If Christianity underwent Reformation (which, without a powerful papacy and its attendant abuses, is unlikely), the Muslim overlords wouldn't be likely to notice much beyond a bunch of dhimmis going nuts over some kind of doctrinal dispute. Best case scenario is they clamp down on the violence and force everyone to live and let live.

-the fatimids might take egypt eventually as well(they will be wealthy from taxation of italy), and be focused on east med and lose interest in italy.

Once thy hold Egypt, Italy will likely become a sideshow, if that. But Italy's taxation isn't likely to be enough to give them an edge over the opposition. Italy's naval resources, on the other hand, could do wonders for a Fatimid state bent on maritime dominance. Lack of suitable timber, iron, pitch, tar, hemp and flax often hampered North African naval powers, and Italy's sea cities initially made their money exporting these things.

-So these states may be all but independant, with the exception that the fatimids tax them. They will probably soon rebel as well, if they get powerful enough.

More likely just wait to let the whole thing collapse on itself. The problem is, any Muslim presence in Italy will need a strong protector, and the available protectors in the area aren't exactly what you'd call paragons of multiculturalism. I don't foresee anything like the Caliphate of Cordoba.

-Alternately, the fatimids might become itlay centric or be other thrown and replace with italian caliphate(caliphate of rome, anyone?):D In this case might take territories in east med just to secure trade routes.

Rome has no horse in the Caliphate stakes. If the Fatimids claim the Caliphate, it will be tied to their family background, not their conquest of the City. That's why I foresee trouble - holding Rome has no side benefit to Islam, but recovering it means the world to the Franks and Anglo-Saxons. And I can't see them conquering territory to secure their trade, unless they want to go maritime power. From the Muslim POV, trade *comes* from Egypt and Syria and *goes* to Italy and Sicily. You wouldn't send ships from Nigeria to secure territory on the US coast to 'secure' their oil trade, would you?

-Need anyone say it, no real crusades as well, with more christian influence on Islam, so less radical islam:)

The latter is likely in the short term (you have to live together with all those Christians who are used to running the place), but as I said, the Muslims of italy will need a strong protector, and most military powers out of North Africa were not the tolerant type. I don't see good prospects there. More likely a lengthy history of conflict which radicalises positions on both sides, with a regular influx of crusaders from the north and ghazis from Norh Africa.
 
I find Muslims holding onto Italy as a whole unlikely, Christian resistance (foregin and domestic) would be too strong. But perhaps they dominate Southern Italy, including Sicily. If so, whn retaken by Christians (maybe the Normans under Robert Guiscard), S. Italy would be given a huge boost in cultural advancement, not to mention science and the arts, which Sicily experienced during the time. If we push it, maybe an early Renaissance.
 

Keenir

Banned
even up to Rome, they would certainly not likely to stay for long,
Sicily is one thing, but Rome itself being taken? That would certainly provoke a considerable response.

so, as long as the Fatimids didn't get too close to Rome, the outcry would be minimal, right?

and I suspect that the Fatimid habit of employing local nobility to run their lands, would keep the nobility of Naples (etc?) from siding with any French or Germanic invaders (counterinvaders?)
 
I think it's more about wealth. Egypt is fabulously wealthy, but Italy back then was just another barbaric backwater ruled by barbarians.
 
I think it's more about wealth. Egypt is fabulously wealthy, but Italy back then was just another barbaric backwater ruled by barbarians.

There's enough stuff in Italy that could tempt an invasion - timber, silver, iron, pitch, building stone, hemp, linen and agriculturals. I'm not sure that they would be interested enough to invade as long as they can get it through peaceful trade (and the Italians were happy to sell the stuff), but if you either somehow interfere with that trade, or make the Fatimids more Western-centred, that need not be an obstacle.
 
I think it's more about wealth. Egypt is fabulously wealthy, but Italy back then was just another barbaric backwater ruled by barbarians.

Though I agree that Egypt was certainly far more wealthy than Italy during this period, Italy was still one of the more developed parts of Western Europe. And Italy did have resources, and control over Italy would have given the Fatimids even more control over the Western and Central Mediterranean.

That said, it would still take a pretty good reason to make the Fatimids reconsider invading Egypt. In fact, the Fatimid conquest could only have been prevented if all of Egypt was firmly under control of either the Abbasids, a local powerful Muslim dynasty, or the Christian Nubian kingdom of Makuria.

And the thing is that the Abbasids had lost most (if not all) of their power in Egypt, and there was no powerful local dynasty to take the place of the Abbasids. However, Makuria was quite strong at this point, and it had conquered good parts of Upper Egypt.

Nonetheless, it would pretty much take a Makuriawank-scenario in which Makuria manages to conquer Egypt all the way up to Alexandria and manages to hold on to it in the face of a (possible) Fatimid invasion, in order to make this prevent a Fatimid conquest of Egypt.
 
hmmm... if we wank Makuria, could that lead to a confrontation between Fatimid Muslims and Makurian and Italian Christians on the high seas? On the one hand I don't think the Latin Catholic Italians would have had much time for the Makurian brand of Christianity. On the other hand, they happily traded with Byzantium and the Islamic world, so they might not end up in outrifght confrontation. And who says the Fatimids distinguish more clearly between Christian and Christian than the popes do between infidel and infidel.

It would be quite ironic if Italy found itself at the receiving end of a Qalbid-Fatimid invasion to avenge a defeat of their forces at the hands of Egyptian heretics...
 
so, as long as the Fatimids didn't get too close to Rome, the outcry would be minimal, right?

That's correct. As long as the Pope and the Christian kingdoms in Europe would remain assured (perhaps through a treaty) that there would be no Fatimid or other Muslim attempt to conquer Rome, the outcry would be minimal.

The Christian leaders of Europe would propably remain suspicious of the Fatimids, though.

and I suspect that the Fatimid habit of employing local nobility to run their lands, would keep the nobility of Naples (etc?) from siding with any French or Germanic invaders (counterinvaders?)

The Fatimids certainly had a habit of employing the local nobility etc., even if they did not adhere their faith, and the OTL Fatimids were known to employ Sunni's and even Jews and Christians in their administration, so this is indeed quite possible. (Ismaili Shi'ites have never been the majority in any territory that has ever been under Fatimid rule, and to maintain their power, the Fatimids had to compensate for that, which is why the Fatimids were more tolerant that, say, the Almoravids)

An able Fatimid ruler should be able to get the local Christian nobles of southern Italy on his side.
 
That's correct. As long as the Pope and the Christian kingdoms in Europe would remain assured (perhaps through a treaty) that there would be no Fatimid or other Muslim attempt to conquer Rome, the outcry would be minimal.

The Christian leaders of Europe would propably remain suspicious of the Fatimids, though.

I think it's hard to see how the Fatimids could meaningfully conquer Italy without tussling with the papal states. I mean, did Fatimid diplomats actually understand the risks involved well enough to gauge their advance accordingly? How would a treaty with the Pope go down with the troops? If they simply don't reach the Patrimony, that effectively just means Fatimid (in that event more likely Qalbid) control of formerly Byzantine South Italy and the Lombard duchies of Beneventum and Salerno. Undoubtedly a tempting prize, but hardly a conquest of Italy.

Maybe the Fatimid caliph ends up calling himself ruler of Italy the way Roger II called himself king of Africa?
 
In my "Great North African Crusade" TL, the Fatimids raid Rome and kill the Pope and end up being utterly destroyed by a pan-European Christian revanche that leads to the (eventual) re-Christianization of North Africa.

It's related, but not the same.
 
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