Paris Burns

Darkest

Banned
Sappers were mining the 400-year-old Palais du Luxembourg with its priceless trove of literary and art treasures, the Chamber of Deputies, the French Foreign Office, the telephone exchanges, the railroad stations, the aircraft plant and every major factory in the area. On August 17, Choltitz had received from Feldmarschall Gunther von Kluge a cable that read in part: "I give the order for the neutralization and destruction envisaged for Paris." Whatever he did, the general would be forced to act soon. He was torn between his ingrained Prussian inclination to do as he was told and the realization that to obey would be a bestial act of mass vandalism for which he would be eternally held responsible.
West of the city, Lt. Col. Hubertus von Aulock was deploying his forces in a 60-mile arc before the advancing Allies. With only 10,000 men available, the line was stretched impossibly thin, but Choltitz had been promised reinforcements. For the time being Aulock's forces busied themselves digging in and installing the 88mm anti-aircraft pieces that had been removed from the city and placed at their disposal for use as artillery against the approaching armored columns. The guns would not be needed at their former posting. The Allies would never bomb Paris.
A tunnel beneath the city was filled with U-boat torpedoes that, if ignited, would produce a titanic explosion and tremendous devastation. On August 17, the busy general received at his headquarters Pierre Charles Tattinger, the mayor of Paris. The mayor was alarmed at all the explosives being deployed throughout the city and asked the German for an explanation. He was shocked by Choltitz's response: "As an officer, Monsieur Tattinger, you will understand there are certain measures I shall have to take in Paris. It is my duty to slow up as much as possible the advance of the Allies."
Although he was a collaborator, Tattinger was understandably aghast at this revelation. How could even the Nazis consider such an atrocity? Suddenly, Choltitz was seized by one of his periodic attacks of asthma and went into a fit of uncontrollable coughing. Leading him onto the balcony for some fresh air, Tattinger looked down on the lovely sculptured garden of the Tuileries and had an inspiration. Gesturing at the captivating vista, he made his point. Below them a lovely young girl was riding her bicycle on the Rue de Rivoli; on the manicured grounds of Le Notre, children played by the pond with their sailboats; across the adjacent Seine was the glittering dome of Les Invalides; and beyond that stood the landmark of the City of Light, the Eiffel Tower.
The Frenchman's appeal was powerful: "Often it is given a general to destroy, rarely to preserve. Imagine that one day it may be given you to stand on this balcony again, as a tourist, to look once more on these monuments to our joys, to our sufferings, and be able to say, 'One day I could have destroyed this, and I preserved it as a gift to humanity.' General, is not that worth all a conqueror's glory?" Choltitz looked silently to his left at the Louvre and to his right at the Place de la Concorde and replied: "You are a good advocate for Paris, Monsieur Tattinger. You have done your duty well. Likewise I, as a German general, must do mine." Would he?

Choltitz decides to lay waste to the city. Many PODs could be used.

- The French Army Museum, military art gallery, 400-year old barracks and the tomb of Napoleon Bonaparte is destroyed.
- The Eiffel Tower is downed when the supports are destroyed by explosives.
- The Palais du Luxembourg is destroyed.
- The Chamber of Deputies.
- The French Foreign Office
- The telephone exchanges
- Railroad stations
- Aircraft plant and every major factory in the area.
- U'boat torpedo explosion
- Bridges throughout the city and other buildings.

Easily as bad as the Holocaust. What happens?

Cheers from Switzerland!
- Darkest
 
I wouldn't compare it to the Holocaust. The one was murder on six million people, the other one would've been the destruction of lots of cultural monuments.

The French would never forgive the Germans for doing so. Every civilized country would be angry at the nazi barbarians. The least that'd happen was that the French would take every piece of art in Germany. But how can this act replace what the nazis destroyed?

One idea, though: Even in Germany, people are ashamed about this vandalism (no insult to the Vandal people intended), and rise against the nazis.
 
I wouldn't compare it to the Holocaust. The one was murder on six million people, the other one would've been the destruction of lots of cultural monuments.

The French would never forgive the Germans for doing so. Every civilized country would be angry at the nazi barbarians. The least that'd happen was that the French would take every piece of art in Germany. But how can this act replace what the nazis destroyed?

One idea, though: Even in Germany, people are ashamed about this vandalism (no insult to the Vandal people intended), and rise against the nazis.

Yeah, you beat me to it.

I was just going to reply 'Easily. As bad. As the holocaust. OK, somebody doesn't value human life highly...'
 

NomadicSky

Banned
Yeah it sure would be just as bad the only thing that would make it worse is if every person in Paris is killed. Which I'm sure almost all of them would have been.
 
Yeah it sure would be just as bad the only thing that would make it worse is if every person in Paris is killed. Which I'm sure almost all of them would have been.

Highly unlikely. Cities are tough to kill, and with only 500 tons of explosives, and even if you detonated them all in one place, the zone of absolute destruction (where no one survives) wouldn't reach to the other end of the Champs-Élysées if detonated at the Arc De Triomphe.
 
He didn't do it because there was no military reason for doing so. All you need is a military reason as a POD. Or a less honorable commander.

Choltitz decides to lay waste to the city. Many PODs could be used.

- The French Army Museum, military art gallery, 400-year old barracks and the tomb of Napoleon Bonaparte is destroyed.
- The Eiffel Tower is downed when the supports are destroyed by explosives.
- The Palais du Luxembourg is destroyed.
- The Chamber of Deputies.
- The French Foreign Office
- The telephone exchanges
- Railroad stations
- Aircraft plant and every major factory in the area.
- U'boat torpedo explosion
- Bridges throughout the city and other buildings.

Easily as bad as the Holocaust. What happens?

Cheers from Switzerland!
- Darkest
 
I wouldn't compare it to the Holocaust. The one was murder on six million people, the other one would've been the destruction of lots of cultural monuments.


Not quite. Hitler wanted Paris razed to the ground; not just monuments and bridges destroyed. Among the plans proposed was for the Luftflotte which was leaving Le Bourget to drop all its bombs and ammo just after lift off, razing about a quarter of Paris to the ground. In the most populated part of the city and suburbs. At 5 in the morning ( though it would be continuous for several hours ).

If that had been implemented, the death toll would have been in hundreds of thousands. Not as bad as the holocaust overall but easily the worst nazi atrocity for the time used.
 

Darkest

Banned
Well, maybe I dont value human life as highly as the rest (no offense to the Jews, sorry), but I see the destruction of such a beautiful city a very, very huge atrocity.

Choltitz had to be convinced by the mayor to let Paris survived, and even after he gave him a tour of the beauty of Paris, Choltitz was unsure. His family was being held hostage. He had more than enough of a reason.

BTW, all the bulleted items were part of the Nazi master plan to raze Paris. It would have been very destructive. Would the French capital remain in Paris?
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Warsaw was completely destroyed after WW2. The Poles still rebuilt it.

And compared to the pre-war Warsaw, it's an extremely ugly and soulless place. Compare it to Krakow, a Polish city that survived more or less intact, and you can see what was lost with the destruction of Warsaw.

Paris is a jewel in the human crown; losing it would be horrific.
 

Fletch

Kicked
Well, maybe I dont value human life as highly as the rest (no offense to the Jews, sorry), but I see the destruction of such a beautiful city a very, very huge atrocity.

Choltitz had to be convinced by the mayor to let Paris survived, and even after he gave him a tour of the beauty of Paris, Choltitz was unsure. His family was being held hostage. He had more than enough of a reason.

BTW, all the bulleted items were part of the Nazi master plan to raze Paris. It would have been very destructive. Would the French capital remain in Paris?
So if you were given the choice between saving millions of lives or the destruction of a major city, you would let the people die?

Thats seriously fucked up. Cities can be rebuilt(see Warsaw), you cant bring people back from the dead.
 

Darkest

Banned
Millions of lives? No. Thats not a good trade-off.

New people can always be born, though, as much as a city can be rebuilt. Life is only inanimate matter made organic, sentience is only electricity moving through an organ. At least a city can live for centuries. Furthermore, a healthy city allows more people to reproduce, creating even more life. A lost home is worth many unborn lives.
 

HueyLong

Banned
Destroying housing is not tantamount to slaughtering people.

Destroying food production can be, but destroying Paris? No.
 
Destroying housing is not tantamount to slaughtering people.

Destroying food production can be, but destroying Paris? No.

Razing a quarter of Paris to the ground, using HE bombs, with the inhabitants still in the building 'is not tantamount to slaughtering people'?

What do you consider a slaughter then?

FYI : there were 800,000 inhabitant in that area, and according to the officer which presented the plan to Von Choltitz ' At dawn, neither cat nor dog would remain alive in the North-East of Paris'. It would be 'a little Hamburg'.
 
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