AH Challenge - a Christian Arab state

Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to create an independant Arab Christian state or principality that lasts at least a century.

The Arab Christian state has to be at least a free city-state, and it may not be a semi-independant vassal of a Muslim state.

However, it can be a vassal of a Christian or other non-Muslim state.

The POD has to be after 640 AD.
 
A smaller Lebanon. The French effectively got greedy on behalf of their Maronite allies when carving up Syria.
 
A smaller Lebanon. The French effectively got greedy on behalf of their Maronite allies when carving up Syria.

Possibly not technically Arab but if Egypt reasserted its independence of the caliphate within a century or so of the conquest, possibly aided by Christians from the Sudan it could easily become a majority Coptic state.

Alternatively tweak the crusades, the Mongol invasion of the region in the 1260's or any number of Byzantium PODs and you could establish a majority Christian presence along part or all of the Levant region. [Technically those may not be Arab in terms of not being Arabic speakers, if earlier languages were maintained or revived but they would be the same basic population, if that's enough to qualify?]

Steve
 
Possibly not technically Arab but if Egypt reasserted its independence of the caliphate within a century or so of the conquest, possibly aided by Christians from the Sudan it could easily become a majority Coptic state.

That's quite interesting and pretty plausible.....allthough you're right that this would technically not be an Arab Christian state.

...and linguistically, Egypt wasn't properly Arabized until IIRC the 12th or 13th century...

Alternatively tweak the crusades, the Mongol invasion of the region in the 1260's or any number of Byzantium PODs and you could establish a majority Christian presence along part or all of the Levant region. [Technically those may not be Arab in terms of not being Arabic speakers, if earlier languages were maintained or revived but they would be the same basic population, if that's enough to qualify?

Well, in this challenge, the defenition of an Arab state is a state that is politically dominated by people who are Arabs and regard themselves as such (technically, one could argue that the Maltese are Roman Catholic Arabs, but since they don't regard themselves as Arabs, they wouldn't count in this challenge), regardless whether the Christian Arabs are a majority or a minority.

But since there are sizable communities of Christian Arabs in the Levant (primarily Greek Orthodox and Syriac Orthodox communities), you'd only need to create a Christian state that is politically dominated by a Christian Arab elite instead of a Syriac or Crusader elite.

In other words: as long as it is ruled by Christian Arabs, it qualifies.

..
By the way, Arabs that are converted to Christianity count as well, as long as they keep regarding themselves as Arabs.
 
Well, in our time, there were the Ghanassids, a Christian Arab vassal state of the Byzantine Empire. However, I think they got wiped out during the Islamic conquests, so they probably don't work.
 
The Maltese ARE Arabs, though - it doesn't really matter what they think they are.

Anyway, Lebanon is the obvious answer. Something goes wrong in the Ottoman Empire c 1860 and the French set up an independent country instead of allowing the autonomous Ottoman regime.

Alternatively, France is more assertve in 1840 during the war between the Ottomans and Egyptians, and Lebanon is made independent instead of returning to Ottoman rule.
 
The Crusader states resist Muslim conqest. Eventually the rulers intermarry with the local aristocracy and become assimilated with the culture of the Levant.
 
In other words: as long as it is ruled by Christian Arabs, it qualifies.

Ran

That’s the point I was uncertain of. I think Arabs as a modern definition is largely equated with use of the language. This was brought into much of the region by the Muslim conquest. As such what would be the status of a population in the region that either stayed Christian or was converted back from Islam after a period of Muslim rule? Would they still use Arabic as their standard language or an earlier local tongue, or whatever their new overlords used? If not would they consider themselves Arabs or be considered as such by other people in the region?

Its fairly easy having some change in the region that gives part of it a predominantly Christian population. Also having it overwhelmingly of the native population in the region rather than some conquering group. Similarly it could become independent of any foreign rule. However whether it would be 'Arab' would depend on what definition is applied.

Steve
 
Alternatively, France is more assertve in 1840 during the war between the Ottomans and Egyptians, and Lebanon is made independent instead of returning to Ottoman rule.

All or the majority christian part of lebanon?

Anyway....

Wonder how this would affect Zionism? Would this country be a stopping off point for Jews settling in Palestine? Would this country see Zionist settlement as potentially helping them by creating a possible ally country?
 

Hendryk

Banned
Before the Muslim conquest, the regions now known as the Maghreb had some of the largest Christian populations in the former Western Roman Empire. Would it be that much of a stretch to imagine that the Berbers would hold on to Christianity and eventually fight off Arab overlordship? (It's a genuine question, I'm not enough of an expert on the period to know the answer).
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
The Maltese are Arabs ? Wow, I never knew that... When did they start being Arabs ? I knew a Maltese girl once, very beautiful, but it never occurred to me she was an Arab-like girl, but then how many Arab women does one see, and usually if on TV they're pretty much covered up so there's no mental image to compare with...

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
All or the majority christian part of lebanon?

Anyway....

Wonder how this would affect Zionism? Would this country be a stopping off point for Jews settling in Palestine? Would this country see Zionist settlement as potentially helping them by creating a possible ally country?

Absolutely not. It's a strange development of history that the Zionist project has reversed interfaith relations - Jews used to rely on the Muslims for protection against the Christians. A Christian state in Lebanon would have been implacably opposed to any Zionist immigration.
 
The Maltese are Arabs ? Wow, I never knew that... When did they start being Arabs ? I knew a Maltese girl once, very beautiful, but it never occurred to me she was an Arab-like girl, but then how many Arab women does one see, and usually if on TV they're pretty much covered up so there's no mental image to compare with...

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Well, "Arab" is a pretty broad idea if you're applying it to ethnicity, so if you take language as your deciding factor, Maltese is a Romance-influenced Arabic dialect written in Latin alphabet. Since everyone from Mauretania to Oman is "Arab" there's a huge ethnic variation...
 

Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
Word of advice, as someone who works with Maltese, do not tell one to his/her face that they are an Arab. They tend to get quite heated on the subject, and given that, depending on the pimp, in question, can end up punching you in the face. Note we call one of the Maltese at work the pimp, he keeps threatening to set his boys on us. The man in question a former bank manager, is like most Maltese Heinz 57, bit like the English.
 

Ibn Warraq

Banned
The Maltese are Arabs ? Wow, I never knew that... When did they start being Arabs ? I knew a Maltese girl once, very beautiful, but it never occurred to me she was an Arab-like girl, but then how many Arab women does one see, and usually if on TV they're pretty much covered up so there's no mental image to compare with...

Best Regards
Grey Wolf


Arabs do not have a common "look". Bashir Assad looks like he'd fit in at a Connecticut country club, Anwar Sadat was darker than Colin Powell, Jesse Jackson, Ice-T and Barack Obama, and Mumar Khaddafi, ... he's in the middle.

People in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Syria and Lebanon, for the most part, have straight hair and fairly light skin since they're largely descendants of the original Hejaz Arabs. Trust me when I say were I too show you pictures of a soccer teams from Greece, Italy, Syria and Lebanon that I doubt you'd be able to pick out the Arabs. Many Palestinians are also, though obviously many are quite darker. Arabs in Sudan and Somalia are the descendants of "natives" who became "arabicized" centuries ago and as a result are actually darker than most African-Americans. Incidentally that's one reason I tend to object to referring to Darfur as a warrior between Arabs and "blacks". By contrast Arabs in most of North Africa tend to be, to varying degrees, the descendants of Berbers who were "Arabacized". This is obviously much more true in Morocco and Algeria than Egypt. For this reason, they tend to be much darker than Saudis for example and tend to curly interlocking hair instead of straight hair.

Beyond that, keep in mind that what constitutes an Arab is very much up for debate. Up untill the early 20th century Arab national consciousness was non-existant. Arab speakers usually identified themselve either by their religion or their locality, i.e. "I'm a Muslim" or "I'm from Damascus" not as Arabs. In fact, the term Arab was considered a pejorative since it was thought to have connations of backward bedouins. Ibn Khaldun for example would be shocked to learn he's regularly cited as a great Arab scholar since he made comments about Arabs that if I were to post on this site and pass off as my own would earn me an instant ban.

Beyond that, even since the rise of Arab national consciousness there is still alot of debate about who is and who isn't an Arab. The Druze in Israel, for the most part, don't consider themselves Arabs even though Arabic is their native language and many regularly use the term Arab as a pejorative. I've heard that most Copts in Egypt don't consider themselves Arabs though most don't express nearly such ill will towards Arabs. I've also heard that many Maronites in Lebanon object to be calling Arabs, though I think most still call themselves Arabs. Admittedly I think in all three case politics and the countries they live in have alot to do their public declarations.

And naturally, Jews in the Arab lands have certainly never been considered by themselves or their neighbors as Arabs, at least not by any meaningful numbers of people or those who weren't lying to curry political favor.
 

Alcuin

Banned
Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to create an independant Arab Christian state or principality that lasts at least a century.

The Arab Christian state has to be at least a free city-state, and it may not be a semi-independant vassal of a Muslim state.

However, it can be a vassal of a Christian or other non-Muslim state.

The POD has to be after 640 AD.

Does Malta count?
 
Absolutely not. It's a strange development of history that the Zionist project has reversed interfaith relations - Jews used to rely on the Muslims for protection against the Christians. A Christian state in Lebanon would have been implacably opposed to any Zionist immigration.

Pasha

I think its less the successful survival of Israel than the changing balance of power between Christian/European and Muslim. As the former became more dominant they needed scapegoats less whereas the Muslims needed it more. Hence the historical hostility of the Muslims to the Jews revived. [The fact that for much of that period Christians were more hostile doesn't change the fact that that hostility existed].

Israel's survival rubbed the Muslim world's noses in it to a degree that the latter had declined from the dominant power in the western world. The fact that not just the might west but a small, despised group could successfully defy one of the main centres of Muslim power.

Steve
 
Before the Muslim conquest, the regions now known as the Maghreb had some of the largest Christian populations in the former Western Roman Empire. Would it be that much of a stretch to imagine that the Berbers would hold on to Christianity and eventually fight off Arab overlordship? (It's a genuine question, I'm not enough of an expert on the period to know the answer).

Hendryk

Would have been quite possible. However, if the Berbers and/or other pre-Arab groups in N Africa successfully threw off Arab domination, especially early on, they couldn't really be described as Arabs could they?

In terms of your question I think part of the problem was the fractious nature of both early Christianity and the chaotic political situation after the collapse of the classical Roman empire. This meant that the Islamic conquest, for all its oppression of minorities [or in this case majorities] by modern standards, was less oppressive and gave a large measure of order after the initial conquest. As such you either need better organisation in defeating the initial attacks or some trigger, say an oppressive Muslim ruler, or a skilled and charismatic rebel leader, to prompt serious opposition to Muslim rule while early enough to make a difference. [Or say a successful rebellion in Egypt, which would isolate the Muslim invaders].

Steve


Steve
 
Does Malta count?

As has been mentioned before; even though the Maltese are effectively Roman Catholic Arabs and speak a language that several linguists consider an Arab dialect, they do not regard themselves as Arabs, so they do not count in this challenge.

That said, if you would create a scenario in which the Maltese for some reason do keep regarding themselves as Arabs, then that would count.

Before the Muslim conquest, the regions now known as the Maghreb had some of the largest Christian populations in the former Western Roman Empire. Would it be that much of a stretch to imagine that the Berbers would hold on to Christianity and eventually fight off Arab overlordship? (It's a genuine question, I'm not enough of an expert on the period to know the answer).

That's actually quite possible - many Berber tribes and tribal confederations fought the invading Muslims, and not without success.
The campaigns of Kahina are a good example of this.

And Byzantine Africa also put up a good fight againest the Muslims, since it took them about forty years to capture Carthage and the rest of Byzantine Africa, even though Byzantine Africa was practically left to fend for itself.

And Christianity indeed did have a good number of adherants among the Berbers (the more or less Romanized Berbers in the lowlands and coastal areas, that is. Most Berbers in the mountains, desert, and the area west of Gibraltar were still pagan or Jewish at this point), and a more coordinated Berber resistance could certainly have halted Muslim expansion to the west.

However, the biggest problem with this scenario is the Catholic-Donatist conflict that was raging among the Christians in Byzantine Africa at this point.

This conflict weakened and deeply divided the Christians in North Africa, and the schismatic and effectively anti-papal Donatist movement merged with local anti-Roman political movements.

The result was a religious-political conflict that had reached its peak at about the point that the Muslims invaded Byzantine Africa.

..
If this conflict would have been resolved somehow prior to the Arab invasion, then Byzantine Africa and the local Berber tribes could certainly have halted Muslim expansion, or they could at least have delayed it for centuries instead of decades.

And if Muslim expansion would have been stopped (or at least halted for a few centuries) in the area of modern Tunesia, then the Berbers of the mountains and the area of modern Morocco, who were at best only superficially Christianized, would have been exposed to Christian influence for a few more centuries.

And with a little luck, Christianity might just gain a firm foothold in the area, and that would only contribute to Berber resistance to possible Muslim invasions and Arab Muslim overlordship.

Would have been quite possible. However, if the Berbers and/or other pre-Arab groups in N Africa successfully threw off Arab domination, especially early on, they couldn't really be described as Arabs could they?

Technically you're right, but we wouldn't let such minor details get in the way
of discussing interesting possebilities and scenario's, now would we? ;)
 
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