AH Challenge - The Dutch Empire

Ran Exilis

Inspired by the "Corrupt a Wank"-thread. ;)

Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to create a Dutch colonial empire that is:

- bigger than the OTL Dutch colonial empire

- of which the largest part (75% at least) lasts into the 20th century

- in the event of decolonisation, the colonial empire becomes a commonwealth much like the British Commonwealth.

..
The POD has to be after 1100 AD, so this shouldn't be a hard challenge.

Bonus points are given if this colonial empire includes the New Netherlands in North America.

Dutch colonies that become independant Dutch nations (like how the US became independant from Great Britain in OTL) will also receive bonus points.
 

Cherico

Banned
Just have them keep brazil and have them move their goverment
there during the napolonic era and stay there.
 

Tyr

I think you'd have to make them bigger in Europe first.
Belgium and large chunks of western Germany.
How though- I don't know enough Duthc history to comment.
 

pompejus

I started reading 'Van nul tot nu' (from zero til now a comic about Dutch history) again today and I just read the part where stadholder William II wished to conquer Belgium at the end of the rebellion, but state of holland and the rich merchants opposed him and wished to disband the expansive army and navy. William II attacked Amsterdam and OTL failed, he died shortly after and the army and Navy where effectivly disbanded. What if William II succeeded. It could lead to a stronger Netherlands that could be able to defend it self against France or England.
 

Ran Exilis

To make the Netherlands hold on to Belgium should be rather easy - just make the Eighty Years' War (also known as the Dutch Revolt) go a lot worse for the Spanish. Much of the Southern Netherlands (pretty much the region of present day Belgium and Luxembourg) were lost to the Spanish during the Eighty Years' War, and the Southern Netherlands weren't reunited with the Northern Netherlands until the formation of the United Kingdom of the Netherlands in 1815.
 

Grimm Reaper

Have a dynastic marriage merging Hanover and Holland, the new Holland includes the NW quarter of Germany and is able to hold Belgium and bits of NE France. From there a larger population settles South Africa...
 

Flocculencio

Donor
I think the main problem here is not the acquiring of more territory- you just have to fudge a few battles and political settlements. The problem is the way the Dutch ran their colonial empires. They squeezed their colonies dry and did nothing for the locals- just compare Java to Malaysia and you see the end result. This makes the development of a Commonwealth-like structure rather unlikely.
 
Thande

Thande

Donor
Flocculencio said:
I think the main problem here is not the acquiring of more territory- you just have to fudge a few battles and political settlements. The problem is the way the Dutch ran their colonial empires. They squeezed their colonies dry and did nothing for the locals- just compare Java to Malaysia and you see the end result. This makes the development of a Commonwealth-like structure rather unlikely.
Click to expand...

You have a good point, Flocc.

Of course in OTL British India started out mainly as a commercial enterprise, too - there's always the possibility that a bigger Dutch empire might eventually have reformed towards a more enlightened view. (Albeit not that great as they didn't in OTL when they had all the East Indies to work wtih).

I think more Dutch in West Africa is an interesting possibility - I've read admiring Dutch-written accounts of West African royal courts in the 1600s (in which throne rooms etc. are consistently described as being 'bigger than the Stock Exchange in Amsterdam!') :D
 

Dutchie

I just don't think the Dutch had a big enough population base to send out many more colonizers/traders than they did... and no pool of scots or irish to send to fill up their new lands like the Brits did.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Flocculencio said:
I think the main problem here is not the acquiring of more territory- you just have to fudge a few battles and political settlements. The problem is the way the Dutch ran their colonial empires. They squeezed their colonies dry and did nothing for the locals- just compare Java to Malaysia and you see the end result. This makes the development of a Commonwealth-like structure rather unlikely.
Click to expand...

I dunno. India was run by a company until 1857, after all.
 

Homer

Dutchie said:
I just don't think the Dutch had a big enough population base to send out many more colonizers/traders than they did... and no pool of scots or irish to send to fill up their new lands like the Brits did.
Click to expand...

Well, let them get some parts of Germany. If they do better in the 80 years and 30 years war, they'd get most of Flandres and maybe some parts of NE-Germany - East Frisia might actually join them and the bishopric of Munster might be conquered. Or let there be a marriage with some German heir. Anyway, as soon as the Netherlands get parts of Germany, they'd get a perfect population base - and if they get the Ruhr, too, they might be an industrial competitor for Britain right from the start.
 

Flocculencio

Donor
Faeelin said:
I dunno. India was run by a company until 1857, after all.
Click to expand...

Ah but remember, the EIC had a completely different corporate culture than the VOC. The directors in London initiated broad policy and let their men on the spot generally get on with what they needed to do, mainly by co-opting native rulers and being as hands-off as possible. The Lords XVII in the Netherlands, however, micromanaged their people to death. This generally meant that the men on the spot had to adopt as rigid and forceful a policy as possible to squeeze profits out of the East Indies. The Dutch government followed in this mould after 1800 with the Cultivation Policy which forced natives to devote a certain percentage of their cultivation to cash crops which were then purchased by the government (which held a monopoly over said crops) and colonial treasury surpluses were transferred to the Dutch treasury.
 
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Ran Exilis

Flocculencio said:
Ah but remember, the EIC had a completely different corporate culture than the VOC. The directors in London initiated broad policy and let their men on the spot generally get on with what they needed to do, mainly by co-opting native rulers and being as hands-off as possible. The Lords XVII in the Netherlands, however, micromanaged their people to death. This generally meant that the men on the spot had to adopt as rigid and forceful a policy as possible to squeeze profits out of the East Indies. The Dutch government followed in this mould after 1800 with the Cultivation Policy which forced natives to devote a certain percentage of their cultivation to cash crops which were then purchased by the government (which held a monopoly over said crops) and colonial treasury surpluses were transferred to the Dutch treasury.
Click to expand...

Those are, of course, very good points - but keep in mind that the earliest possible POD in this challenge is in 1101 AD, so theoretically, it is possible to use a POD that changes the Low Countries fundamentally

For example, you can make it a Protestant Habsburg monarchy or even a Catholic monarchy if you want, as long as this alternate Dutch state builds a colonial empire that is bigger as but not neccesarily similar to the OTL Dutch colonial empire.

But of course, a POD that changes the policy of the VOC is also perfectly acceptable.
 

Flocculencio

Donor
Ran Exilis said:
Those are, of course, very good points - but keep in mind that the earliest possible POD in this challenge is in 1101 AD, so theoretically, it is possible to use a POD that changes the Low Countries fundamentally

For example, you can make it a Protestant Habsburg monarchy or even a Catholic monarchy if you want, as long as this alternate Dutch state builds a colonial empire that is bigger as but not neccesarily similar to the OTL Dutch colonial empire.

But of course, a POD that changes the policy of the VOC is also perfectly acceptable.
Click to expand...

Oh, sure, no argument there. I was just using a more conservative POD- I'm pretty hazy on the Netherlands before the war against the Spanish so I was just going with what I was familiar with.

With an earlier POD you could maybe have Geldreland as the state which becomes the dominant one in the Holy Roman Empire, uniting the Low Germans (perhaps incorporating the Hanse) and joining in the colonial process at the same time as OTL's United Provinces.

It wouldn't be the Netherlands as we know it but it would be a Niederdeutsch state with it's power centre in, say, Eindhoven or Hanover or Lubeck, and a powerful navy and merchant fleet.
 
Thande

Thande

Donor
How about a scenario where the VOC remains separate and loyal to an exiled Stadtholderate after the Batavian Republic and then Napoleon take over? Aside from meaning that Britain doesn't have to take over all the Dutch colonies and keep half of them afterwards, this might result in the VOC developing a more independent corporate culture throughout the decade plus of being off Amsterdam's leash, and then that independent culture might be retained afterwards.
 
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