Moscow,1942

[dmz23]

WI Hitler decided to attack Moscow again in 1942 instead of going after the Caucasus oilfields?
Thoughts?

[Max Sinister]

Too late, I'd say. The Soviets would fight tooth & nail for their capital, and the Germans would still lose. Maybe not as spectacular as in Stalingrad, where a whole army was captured, but still.

[dmz23]

I disagree. The Soviets had a lot of manpower,but it was poorly trained and nowhere near as well armed as it was later in 1942 or early 1943. The soviets were better at mobile warfare than they were in 1941,but they still could not compete with the German blitzkrieg. Once the panzers break through and turn the battle mobile,the Soviets will begin to suffer enormous losses. The Germans will simply encircle Moscow and push the front back a few miles beyond it. Stalin will probably choose to remain in Moscow,leaving the Soviet officials outside the capital leaderless and unable to organise a relief operation. If Stalin abandons Moscow,the battered soviet forces in front of the capital could disintegrate-Stalins name and presence stiffened resistance and Morale. It should also be noted that the Soviet capital was well within German reach in the spring of 1942-less than 150 miles at one point. This was a distance that the panzers could cover in a week.

[Max Sinister]

The Soviets had three defense lines around Moscow. Don't know how good they were, but they won't give up without a fight. Can you imagine streetfighting in Moscow?

[Agrippa]

You would also have to factor in the impact of the Soviet Kharkov offensive without a reinforced Army Group South there to meet it. Though the Soviets aren't going to roll up the Germany army or anything that spectacular, they may be able to halt von Manstein's Crimean offensive and suck up panzer divisions from an Army Group Center that is preparing to attack Moscow. That would delay the launch of the Moscow offensive. The offensive is not going to be a second Barbarossa; it's going to be a long, slow affair. Stalin anticipated an attack on Moscow and the Red Army prepared accordingly. If the Soviets hold out long enough, Moscow becomes the new Stalingrad.

[Prinz Richard Eugen]

The Soviets had gathered most of their reserves around the Moscow defense area. This would have made it very difficult for the Germans to break through like they did in the south. In fact, the German success in the south was due to the lack of Soviet reserves there. Not until Hitler becomes obsessed over Stalin's city and fighting bogs down are the Soviets able to get enough reserves where they are needed. So if Hitler goes for Moscow, he will be attacking the area where the best Soviet formations would be. Not quite Kursk, but certainly heavy losses for German formations.

Besides, Hitler wanted the oilfieds in the south. He understood that Germany needed the oil (and they needed to deny it to the Soviets) much more than they needed Moscow. In 1942, at least, the decision to avoid Moscow was the correct one.

[Cavendish]

I think that the question of wether or not the Germans could capture Moscow depended more on the early stages of Barbarossa's planning. Initally Moscow was to be the key objective, with the Baltics (and Leningrad) and the Ukraine and Caucuasus lesser objectives. Through Hitler's guidance the plan evolved into the three pronged attack that it became, and capturing Moscow became a whole lot less likely.

[ThomasG]

Originally Posted by Agrippa

You would also have to factor in the impact of the Soviet Kharkov offensive without a reinforced Army Group South there to meet it. Though the Soviets aren't going to roll up the Germany army or anything that spectacular, they may be able to halt von Manstein's Crimean offensive and suck up panzer divisions from an Army Group Center that is preparing to attack Moscow. That would delay the launch of the Moscow offensive. The offensive is not going to be a second Barbarossa; it's going to be a long, slow affair. Stalin anticipated an attack on Moscow and the Red Army prepared accordingly. If the Soviets hold out long enough, Moscow becomes the new Stalingrad.

Those reinforcements didn't take part in the fighting as Hitler didn't want to tip his hand.

[Stalker]

Originally Posted by Max Sinister

The Soviets had three defense lines around Moscow. Don't know how good they were, but they won't give up without a fight. Can you imagine streetfighting in Moscow?

Max Sinister is absolutely right!
Moreover, in Chief Committee of Defence they thougt the Wehrmacht would attack with main force Moscow again. It was Stalin's obsession, so he deployed Red Army main forces in the Central Front. He didn't believe the data of Soviet intelligence which worked very well that the German main summer offensive would start in the south and thought it was Abwehr's provocation. So, Red Army was in strong defensive around Moscow with Zhukov at command, and planned the auxiliary offensive in the South with two main objectives - Kharkov and Crimea to lift the siedge around Sevastopol.
Now, imagine what would happen if OKH concentrates all Wehrmacht forces for a new strike on Mocsow, and marshal Timoshenko's armies moves on Kharkov where Germans are in defensive, and Germans go for Moscow!...
Meatgrinder in both directions, if you ask me.

[PeterMac]

The Germans still held the upper hand in early 1942. A spring offensive directly aimed at Moscow would have probably been succesful. The Russians had superiority in numbers but the Germans still had another year of miltary superiority. But as other before them had discovered to their ruin the USSR spans a whole continent...

Counter Factual; Germany occupies Moscow in June 1942. The Kremlin evacutes to the Urals and continues their war efforts. Increasingly aided by Britain and the USA and it's own vast resources of people and raw materials it rebuilds it's miltary forces and launches a counter offensive in 1943. Germany is defeated in 1946.

[dmz23]

Fighting for a city like Moscow is far easier than fighting for a city like Stalingrad. Street-fighting did not lead to German defeat at Minsk or Smolensk in 1941. The Germans simply encircled the defenders and proceeded to pound them until the Soviets ran out of ammo,food or collapsed due to low morale.
Stalingrad was not cut off completely as it was drip-fed equipment and divisions from across the R.Volga. This allowed the defenders to resist for a very long period. If Moscow was surrounded,the only way to re-supply the defenders would involve forcing a corridor through the German lines.This would be extremely difficult, especially if the Soviets have already taken a battering in the battles around Moscow.
The defenses around Moscow in 1942 were indeed strong, but nothing like at Kursk. The panzers would have no trouble breaking through and encircling the defenders. Expect massive "pocket battles" in front of Moscow where the bulk of the Soviets armour and infantry are destroyed by the more mobile German forces. Once the Red army is destroyed,the Germans simply surround Moscow and either launch a direct assault or beseige the city.
Moscows importance:
1]Moscow had the only significant lateral communications in European Russia. The loss of Moscow would make a defensive campaign ,west of the Volga, impossible at a strategic level as Stalin would loose his abililty to shift reserves to meet the greatest threats.
2]The fall of Moscow would of necessity be preceded by the destruction of all Soviet forces in front of the capital. Stalin would not abandon his capital without a fight as the czar had in 1812. In this scenario,the remaining Soviet armies defending on the wings would have no choice but to fight on reversed fronts,at great numerical disadvantage. The fall of Moscow would ,at a minimum, free significant numbers of German armour and infantry for operations elsewhere.
3]Moscow served as a political and psychological symbol of the communist regime. Its fall might well have destroyed not only the soviets ability to resist in the west,but the communist regime itself. Stalin had created a cult of personality that stressed his personal leadership as the source of Soviet progress. Military and political defeat,laid at his feet as supreme soviet leader,held also the promise of the total collapse of the Soviet system,a fact the Germans clearly appreciated. While the Russian state might survive in the vast spaces between the Urals and the pacific,Soviet military resistance to the Germans in Europe would be crushed.

Before attacking Moscow in 1942-the German forces would have to be re-equiped. They would also have to eliminate security threats in their rear[like sevastopol]. Timoshenko may reach Kharkov briefly,but he would be evicted from the area as the Germans had air-superiority and better quality troops. Red army units were also suffering morale problems. Co-ordination was also a problem with Red army commanders in biplanes dodging the Messerschmitts in an effort to locate specific troop and armoured units. However,Timoshenko may escape the utter defeat of OTL,leaving some capacity for another limited attack. In all probability, a panicked Stalin will send Timoshenkos armoured units to aid Moscows defense, once the panzers start rolling toward the Soviet capital. Timoshenko will be tasked with defending the static southern front,while the central front achieves prominence.

[PeterMac]

In Spring 1942 the Germans still had the initative in Russia. Only thru Hitler's blunderous intervention in miltary planning did he lose this offensive. He divided his forces. Soviet manpower and resistance would overcome him.

An alternative history (Is that the point of this forum?) does not seem to exist in this thread.

[dmz23]

Originally Posted by PeterMac

In Spring 1942 the Germans still had the initative in Russia. Only thru Hitler's blunderous intervention in miltary planning did he lose this offensive. He divided his forces. Soviet manpower and resistance would overcome him.

An alternative history (Is that the point of this forum?) does not seem to exist in this thread.

Its more of a debate at this point. Many in this forum produce questions or a POD with a few details. The objective? To find out more info about a topic or assess how plausable a scenario is with the input provided from other people. An interesting POD is often expanded,but the completed versions are in the Timelines and scenarios forum.

[Stalker]

Originally Posted by dmz23

Fighting for a city like Moscow is far easier than fighting for a city like Stalingrad. Street-fighting did not lead to German defeat at Minsk or Smolensk in 1941. The Germans simply encircled the defenders and proceeded to pound them until the Soviets ran out of ammo,food or collapsed due to low morale.

Can you compare Minsk and Smolensk with Moscow by sizes? Moreover, there were no street fighting of a scale in Minsk, and Smolensk also finally fell in mobile warfare.

Originally Posted by dmz23

This would be extremely difficult, especially if the Soviets have already taken a battering in the battles around Moscow.

The same was planned for Moscow in 1941. Somehow, it didn't happen.

Originally Posted by dmz23

The defenses around Moscow in 1942 were indeed strong, but nothing like at Kursk.

Can you please ground your point of view?

Originally Posted by dmz23

The panzers would have no trouble breaking through and encircling the defenders. Expect massive "pocket battles" in front of Moscow where the bulk of the Soviets armour and infantry are destroyed by the more mobile German forces.

This is not summer of 1941. And Russians are in strong defence with their better troops around Moscow. They also have got experience from autumn battles for Moscow. So, you need a total breakthrough by German Panzers, which I doubt in these circumstances. Maybe, Hitler was no a complete fool to decide to strike in the south after all?

Originally Posted by dmz23

Co-ordination was also a problem with Red army commanders in biplanes dodging the Messerschmitts in an effort to locate specific troop and armoured units.

You mean kukuruzniks? Heh, Soviets started production of their transport aviation just after they got the American license for Duglas-Dacota (in Soviet marking it went as Li-2). Besides, there was a limited number of superb long range bombers Pe-8 used specifically for the purpost of transportation of commanders and Soviet diplomats.