Henry the Great.

[DAv]

The War of Dutch Independence Two: This time, it's the French

Great so far and with the reforms of the British Army, it looks as if they could make an impact despite the disadvantage of numbers. BTW, is the Chinese Emperor according to OTL or is it an event of TTL?

[pompejus]

Originally Posted by DAv

The War of Dutch Independence Two: This time, it's the French

And if the Dutch manage to defeat the French, perhaps Part Three against the Germans from the HRE. I believe that technically The Netherlands is still part of the HRE.

[Quiet_Man]

Originally Posted by DAv

The War of Dutch Independence Two: This time, it's the French

Great so far and with the reforms of the British Army, it looks as if they could make an impact despite the disadvantage of numbers. BTW, is the Chinese Emperor according to OTL or is it an event of TTL?

The Chinese event is real, Britain like the Dutch and Portuguese is now involved with Chinese trade, but struggle to make inroads against the Chinese government who see them as either barbarians or prey.

The British army is small, but it's one of the most disciplined on the field, Henry knows this, which is why you'll see him try and keep casualties as low as possible. It's not like he can't replace them, it's just that any he gets will not be as good.

[Quiet_Man]

Originally Posted by pompejus

And if the Dutch manage to defeat the French, perhaps Part Three against the Germans from the HRE. I believe that technically The Netherlands is still part of the HRE.

The map of Europe will be redrawn after this coming conflict.

[arctic warrior]

Originally Posted by pompejus

And if the Dutch manage to defeat the French, perhaps Part Three against the Germans from the HRE. I believe that technically The Netherlands is still part of the HRE.

Originally Posted by Quiet_Man

The map of Europe will be redrawn after this coming conflict.

I wonder about the role of Denmark in this war. Of course Christian IV is preparing, he already has got one of the largest navies but losses in the recent war with Sweden must have been a drain on his and Denmarks coffers, even with increased funds from Puerto Rico. OTL Denmark and especially Christian IV was very wealthy and a Danish pricess a good party for marriage as it would bring benefits in Danish support - financial and expected militarily.
It looks like Christian in TTL hasn't been so keen in persueing former Bishopseats for his brother and sons in Northern Germany, so he hasn't alienated himself to his allies in Northern Germany as OTL. TTL they might even rally to him come war.
Christian had ties to quite a number of important Protestant States of Northern Germany: his grandfather on his mother, Sofia, side was Ulrich Duke of Mecklenburg, after whom Christians younger brother was named, his sister Elizabeth was married to Heinrich Julius the Duke of Braunschweig-Wolfenbüttel, sister Hedevig married to the elector Christian 2. of Saxony, sister Augusta married to the Duke of Holstein-Gottorp, Christian himself married to Anna Cathrina of Brandenburg, daughter of the elector. Christians sister Anna of course married to King James of Scotland and England and Annas daughter Elizabeth was married to elector Friedrich of Pfalz. Christian however wasn't in a position to help her after 1619 as the Council of the Realm strongly opposed intervention in the War in Germany.
OTL Christian IV supported his relatives in Germany - Braunschweig-Wolfenbüttel 1605-06 against the city of Braunschweig and around 1605 the elector of Brandenburg in its efford against Poland to get Prussia recognized as part of Brandenburg.
Christian himself had some idea it seems to replace the Emperor himself!

[wannis]

Originally Posted by pompejus

And if the Dutch manage to defeat the French, perhaps Part Three against the Germans from the HRE. I believe that technically The Netherlands is still part of the HRE.

Yes, that's correct, in OTL they became a fully recognised sovereign nation only with the peace of Muenster and Osnabrueck that ended the 30 years war in 1648. Same with Switzerland.
AFAIK in OTL the HRE never made any attempt to hinder them from going on their own - 1648 just legally acknowledged the facts on the ground. Of course, if in TTL the character of the war is more one of a general anti-protestant crusade, the Netherlands certainly are a target.

[Quiet_Man]

(1643) February. Henry finalises plans for a British landing in Europe at the port of Bruge. There he would link up with the Dutch army under Frederick Henry, Prince of Orange sharing joint command (something Henry was not happy about).
The assembly of the army was complete, Henry would be taking some 50,000 troops with him as well as a siege train and 5000 support troops.
The British Parliament placed a call to various southern counties militia to assemble at the Army training grounds at Buxton after the first planting to be trained in the arms and manoeuvres of the Army proper.

The British fleet despite foul weather proceeded to sweep the Channel for any and all French vessels, impounding, destroying or driving back into port anything that could be deemed a spy or a threat.
In the New World, Admiral Hayter of the North American flotilla received orders to board colonial militia and seize Jamaica from French control.
The largest collection of merchant shipping ever seen by Londoners was assembling in The Thames waiting to embark the British “Bluecoats” to Flanders.
A British ambassador finally gained an audience with Shogun Iemitsu though the meeting was strained over language and cultural differences overall it caused a thaw in relations between the British and Japanese that was to bear fruit in later years.

The Dutch continued their preparations and fortification of their lines across Flanders waiting for a French assault.
The Dutch also at this time chart New Zealand.

In Denmark, Christian receives several formal requests for alliances and aid from some very nervous Princes and Arch-Bishoprics across northern Germany.
The Danish Baltic fleet is assembling near Copenhagen preparatory to bringing a Swedish army across to fight alongside the Danish army.

In Sweden Gustav sends out messages for his army to assemble as soon as the snows clear.

Germany descends into chaos as differing Protestant and Catholic factions fight it out in the cities, towns and countryside. Brother slays brother and the violence spirals out of control many taking the opportunity to loot and pillage traditional enemies or rivals despite their religious beliefs.

In France Cinq-Mars tightens his grip on the reins of power any suspected of sympathising with the previous favourites in court were falsely accused and removed into state “protection.” The French army other than those needed for border duties is ordered to assemble in Piccardy. There is a lot of low level dissatisfaction in Brittany as the local nobility use enforced conscription to make up their levies.

In the HRE Wallenstein and Tilly receive their orders to remove Protestantism from the HRE and bring the Emperor’s lands back to the true faith.

[stevep]

Well the Dutch successfully resisted a combined Franco-British attack in the 1680's. Although that was partly by withdrawing behind their defenses and flooding large sections of the country. In this case the alliance with Britain and Denmark means their secure at sea. Also if Britain helps both militarily and financially that would be a big boost. On the down side would be possible extra pressure from the HRE - unless that is mainly aimed at Denmark and the German Protestants.

One thing to possibly consider is how complex alliances could be at this point. So great was the concern about the power Louis XIV was assembling by that time, that not only was the bulk of the HRE in the opposite camp but I did hear that the Papacy was supporting William of Orange against James II during the Irish campaign. Similarly, earlier in the 30 Years War, while the Swedish intervention is the most famous factor in the defeat of the attempt to establish a Catholic Hapsburg controlled empire France was probably a lot more important. It funded much of the Swedish campaigns and later intervened with large forces itself. [You are probably well aware of this but just in case]. My basic point is that if any single power is starting to get too powerful you are likely to see a quick shuffling of alliances.

Steve

[Quiet_Man]

Originally Posted by stevep

Well the Dutch successfully resisted a combined Franco-British attack in the 1680's. Although that was partly by withdrawing behind their defenses and flooding large sections of the country. In this case the alliance with Britain and Denmark means their secure at sea. Also if Britain helps both militarily and financially that would be a big boost. On the down side would be possible extra pressure from the HRE - unless that is mainly aimed at Denmark and the German Protestants.

One thing to possibly consider is how complex alliances could be at this point. So great was the concern about the power Louis XIV was assembling by that time, that not only was the bulk of the HRE in the opposite camp but I did hear that the Papacy was supporting William of Orange against James II during the Irish campaign. Similarly, earlier in the 30 Years War, while the Swedish intervention is the most famous factor in the defeat of the attempt to establish a Catholic Hapsburg controlled empire France was probably a lot more important. It funded much of the Swedish campaigns and later intervened with large forces itself. [You are probably well aware of this but just in case]. My basic point is that if any single power is starting to get too powerful you are likely to see a quick shuffling of alliances.

Steve

Having a balance of power in Europe is the most difficult thing in this timeline. France is by far and away the richest state in Europe, but militarily it is eclipsed by the northern alliance. The Pope is pushing for a war in the hopes that,
1) Catholics win big time and then turn on the Ottomans who are giving Venice a real hard time.
2) Strip France of its wealth by getting them involved in a long and costly war.
3) Bring Savoy (a French puppet) into the papal fold along with the Duchy of Milan which the Spanish had lost to the French.

The HRE is hoping to restore its errant statelings back into the fold so Ferdinand can restore the glory that once was. He's hoping that France can distract Britain and Holland so he can deal with Denmark and Sweden, rather than all four.

Over all, it's not in anyone's interests to see too much power reside in the hands of any one state, this will affect future thinking of all sides.

The problem is of course that Henry of Britain is a wildcard.

[Quiet_Man]

(1643) March, British troops start landing in Bruge, where they are swiftly moved out of the city to camps outside. The troops have been warned against mistreating the natives and that any infringements of discipline will be severely punished. Henry himself had his headquarters in one of the camps showing that whatever his men suffered so did he. There is in truth little or no problems with the local populace despite being mostly Roman Catholic, this is mostly down to the British insistence of paying for any requisitioned food or supplies they are not bringing across with them.
The British navy fought and won a battle against the French navy off Le Havre sinking 3 and boarding 5 to no serious losses. A naval flotilla also enters the Mediterranean watched though not interfered with by the Spanish to patrol the French coast off Marseille. Though not as manoeuvrable as galleys they are far heavier armed than any other ships in the Mediterranean.
Admiral Hayter and 500 Colonial troops seize Jamaica, though ostensibly a French colony handed over by the Spanish, there was no French garrison or governor in place, merely a few French merchants. It is the first time colonial troops have fought away from their colonies, and they acquitted themselves well. Also present were a small group of Haudenosaunee volunteer scouts.

The Dutch army under the Prince of Orange assembles close to the British army. The Prince is impressed with the discipline of the British, though wonders what they’ll be like under real combat.

Denmark is having refugee problems as thousands of displaced Protestants flee north to escape the troubles or just to get out of the way of the war. The Swedish army is however on its way to back up the Danish army which is still under strength from its recent conflict in Sweden.

In Sweden Gustav and prince Robert of Britain board Danish ships at Stockholm to join up with the Danish army.

Two French armies of over 70,000 men each are moving north to the Dutch lines near Liege. The newly created Duc de Flanders and the French General Louis II de Bourbon, 4th Prince de Condé, Duc d'Enghien thought overwhelming force would soon bring the Dutch to their knees, totally discounting the British as being of no consequence as they had no experience of real war. Other French armies are being assembled to assist their HRE allies, but are not yet in the field. French demands that Savoy should also provide troops are coldly rebuffed, the Duke of Savoy having no liking for Cinq-Mars or his faction, indeed sheltering Queen Anne from Cinq-Mars spite.

The two HRE armies move into the field, moving from one Protestant stronghold to the other killing or forcibly converting the populace they meet, driving hundreds from their land and into hiding. Wallenstein meets and annihilates a combined elector army north of Mannheim.

[Jammy]

Originally Posted by Quiet_Man

Two French armies of over 70,000 men each are moving north to the Dutch lines near Liege. The newly created Duc de Flanders and the French General Louis II de Bourbon, 4th Prince de Condé, Duc d'Enghien thought overwhelming force would soon bring the Dutch to their knees, totally discounting the British as being of no consequence as they had no experience of real war. Other French armies are being assembled to assist their HRE allies, but are not yet in the field. French demands that Savoy should also provide troops are coldly rebuffed, the Duke of Savoy having no liking for Cinq-Mars or his faction, indeed sheltering Queen Anne from Cinq-Mars spite.

There in for a shock then and good for the Duke Of Savoy

[DAv]

I've got a feeling we're going to be getting Blenheim about sixty years early... Another great update and I'm looking forward to seeing how the war turns out.

[fortyseven]

Good stuff. Will there be illustrations of the battlefields like the other one?

[stevep]

Quiet Mann

Two small questions.

a) Two armies of 70k may be a little large for this period, as I don't think the French armies got that large until the latter days of Louis XIV. However if say including a lot of camp followers and the like could well be realistic and would make them a lot weaker than they appear.

b) With a clear anti-Protestant stance by France what is the situation with the Huganaughts? Has the Edict of Nantes been revoked and has there been any equivalent of the St Bartholomew Day Massacre? Thinking there could be a lot of unrest in France itself.

Otherwise looking interesting. There is a danger of problems with former opponents working so closely together in the Danes and Swedes having been at war so recently but could be very interesting. Given the advantages of the defence in warfare at the time a couple of well disciplines armies are going to be very tough to beat and both the French and the empire could be in for some nasty shock.

Steve

[Quiet_Man]

Originally Posted by stevep

Quiet Mann

Two small questions.

a) Two armies of 70k may be a little large for this period, as I don't think the French armies got that large until the latter days of Louis XIV. However if say including a lot of camp followers and the like could well be realistic and would make them a lot weaker than they appear.

b) With a clear anti-Protestant stance by France what is the situation with the Huganaughts? Has the Edict of Nantes been revoked and has there been any equivalent of the St Bartholomew Day Massacre? Thinking there could be a lot of unrest in France itself.

Otherwise looking interesting. There is a danger of problems with former opponents working so closely together in the Danes and Swedes having been at war so recently but could be very interesting. Given the advantages of the defence in warfare at the time a couple of well disciplines armies are going to be very tough to beat and both the French and the empire could be in for some nasty shock.

Steve

a) yes the French armies are a bit on the large side, a large army in those days being 35 - 40,000, so in essence I'll have to make it 4 combined armies as I don't want to make things too easy for anyone, it is intended to overwhelm the Dutch and the British. The French are working on a bigger is better scheme, without realising the consequences that controlling such a large army is going to give them major problems. For one thing they are not well supplied and are requisitioning (seizing) supplies from any landowners en-route.

b) The Edict of Nantes is still in place in French law, though Cinq-Mars will rescind it soon. Most Huguenots have already left France under the treaty of La Rochelle which Richelieu signed with John Pym and settled in Southern Britain, Scotland and Ireland. Henry has a small Huguenot regiment with him lead by Benjamin de Rohan, former Duc de Soubise though he's using them as royal marshals (Military police) between the locals and the Brits.

A St Bartholemew style massacre is ongoing in the HRE.

[Quiet_Man]

(1643) April, Henry and the Prince of Orange split their armies with the Dutch moving to meet the Duc de Flanders at Liege and the British to try and hold Bruge.
The Army of the Duc d'Enghien moved to attack the British army outside of Bruge meeting them in battle at the small town of Rozeboom. The French were drawn up in the traditional block formations of two pike to one musket and outnumbered the British army by almost a 1/3rd. The British all musket regiments were drawn up in lines of 6 deep with artillery support amongst the regiments, with cavalry on each wing. At 10 am on Wednesday 10th of April the first shots were fired.
The French immediately found themselves in trouble as the British artillery outranged and was far more concentrated than their own. Still the orders went out and five regiments advanced against the fragile seeming British lines whilst the French cavalry on either wing swept around looking to outflank the British lines.
At 150 yards the British commenced volley fire, the platoons alternating their fire, first from the outside, right then left, and continuing the firing order toward the centre of the battalion. This allowed a continuous fire to be presented to the enemy and minimized the obscurity of the target caused by smoke. After each man had discharged his Musket he moved to the rear of the line and reloaded whilst the man behind him stepped forward and fired on command. Within 1 minute a French block had taken 1200 bullets from a single British regiment and the attack had stalled as the casualties from the volley fire of several British regiments had almost annihilated the French attack. Though surprised the Duc d'Enghien tried a cavalry attack from the flanks combined with another frontal assault by 10 regiments. The French cavalry were met by a counter charge by the British who met them head on wielding their new Katana swords. The resulting massacre came as a total shock to the French as the British swords were far heavier and kept their edge far better than anything the French had. The last thing many a Frenchman saw was a katana smash his own sword away to cleave deep into his unprotected sides. Others found that a katana could punch from the tip right through their frontal armour. The second French attack stalled in the same way as the first with the massed ranks simply unable to close with the British line and its withering rain of fire.
Henry the called for the advance and keeping strict time the British lines marched forward to within 200 yards of the nearest French regiment, presented arms and continued volley fire.
Chaos now reigned within the French ranks as the Duc d'Enghien frantically sent out orders to various regiments to close ranks to meet the British advance only to see many regiments begin to move away from the horrific carnage that the British were causing in the centre. Worse was to come as a regiment of British cavalry under the command of David Leslie broke through the French cavalry screen and charged the rear of a pike regiment causing it to rout into the side of other regiments. This was the signal for a general French retreat which under the pressure of the British army became an every man for himself rout. At this juncture Henry sent in his dragoons and ordered his cavalry to break any standing French formations they could or hold them in position if they couldn’t. Henry also authorised the taking of surrender of any French regiment who offered.
The day turned into nightmare made flesh for the French army, constantly harried, cut down from behind by the lances of the British dragoons or the katanas of the cavalry. The General Duc d'Enghien captured in Torhout and his command scattered.

French casualties estimated at the end of the day were almost 35,000, with the British suffering just over 1,000. The news stunned the political elite of Europe and by many was simply disbelieved as impossible.

The second French army under the Duc de Flanders fought a more conventional battle outside of Liege and pushed the Dutch out of the city.

The British Mediterranean squadron bombarded Marseille.

The British Parliament voted a nations thanks to the British army and the Militia turnout for training a Buxton was almost overwhelmed by volunteers to go fight the enemies of Britain. En-route from Scotland with the British volunteers (including a regiment of Campbells in Bluecoats and kilts) the Marquis of Montrose found themselves being greeted by cheering mobs of well wishers as Britain united as never before.

In Holland, notice was taken of the British tactics and though unable to emulate them (as yet) preparations for the future were made.

The joint Danish Swedish army set out from Kiel to try and restore order to the south. Both Tilly and Wallenstein moved to meet them though slowing to continue their main task of removing Protestantism from the lands they crossed. The two armies of Denmark and Sweden had to be kept apart generally as bad feelings over the recent Danish invasion often threatened to spill over into fighting.

In France there was disbelief as the news came in over their defeat by the British. The blame was placed squarely on the incompetence of the Duc d'Enghien and his poor planning and tactics. Mostly by people who had never fought or been near a battle in their lives.
The Edict of Nantes was also removed from French law at this time.

In Spain the French defeat was used by opponents of King Philip to try and prove how incompetent he was over the last war against the French. A coup was now in the planning.

[Jammy]

Originally Posted by Quiet_Man

In Spain the French defeat was used by opponents of King Philip to try and prove how incompetent he was over the last war against the French. A coup was now in the planning.

Sounds interesting, im thinking a coup then an alliance (as long as a not hardliner catholic gets the throne) with the Northern Alliance and a two way attack on France.

Whats the state of Gibralter at the minute, is it still Spanish?

Good to hear about the French being hammered in battle.

Keep it up

[Quiet_Man]

Originally Posted by Jammy

Sounds interesting, im thinking a coup then an alliance (as long as a not hardliner catholic gets the throne) with the Northern Alliance and a two way attack on France.

Whats the state of Gibralter at the minute, is it still Spanish?

Good to hear about the French being hammered in battle.

Keep it up

Gibraltar is still very much Spanish, they didn't cede it to the British in OTL till 1713. The British squadrons in the Mediterranean have port facilities on Corsica, ostensibly ruled by Genoa, but the local nobility don't seem to be bothered.

[DAv]

British troops defeating French cavalry while wielding Katana blades? 10/10 for originality there Great update and it looks as if this war is going to go really, really badly for the French at this pace.

[Quiet_Man]

Originally Posted by DAv

British troops defeating French cavalry while wielding Katana blades? 10/10 for originality there Great update and it looks as if this war is going to go really, really badly for the French at this pace.

Henry received one as a gift from the Shogun, he liked it and bought more, they are superior in quality to anything western Europe had at this time.