Henry the Great.

[wannis]

Originally Posted by Grey Wolf

A bit late commenting on this one, but I think this is a first and therefore ought to cause some serious repurcussions, including those nations who refuse to acknowledge Savoy as a kingdom

As far as I can see, kingdoms of OTL were always created by someone else - either the Pope gave a crown to someone, or an overlord did. I believe this even applies to Prussia where the 'King in Prussia' thing I think was from the King of Poland ? With regard to Bavaria etc of OTL, it was done by Napoleon as Emperor upon the disolution of the HRE

So, as far as I can see, for Savoy to unilaterally decide it is a kingdom would be quite unprecendented and would have some serious effects. These would of course include the starting of a precedent if they are allowed to get away with it

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

I second that - things got laxer after the Napoleonic wars; especially newly founded countries called themselves whatever they liked (e.g. the Brazilian Empire), but before Napoleon this was an unusual thing to do (even Napoleon went through the motions of dissolving the HRE before making himself Emperor).

IIRC, in OTL Northern Italy was formally still part of the HRE till the Westphalian peace 1648, and as this didn't happen in your TL, so in your TL only the HR Emperor could give the title of King to the rulers of Savoy.

A possibility would be that as part of the general peace stipulations Savoy (and other Northern Italian territories) would become sovereign, and Savoy to be declared a Kingdom as part of this process.

[Quiet_Man]

Originally Posted by wannis

I second that - things got laxer after the Napoleonic wars; especially newly founded countries called themselves whatever they liked (e.g. the Brazilian Empire), but before Napoleon this was an unusual thing to do (even Napoleon went through the motions of dissolving the HRE before making himself Emperor).

IIRC, in OTL Northern Italy was formally still part of the HRE till the Westphalian peace 1648, and as this didn't happen in your TL, so in your TL only the HR Emperor could give the title of King to the rulers of Savoy.

A possibility would be that as part of the general peace stipulations Savoy (and other Northern Italian territories) would become sovereign, and Savoy to be declared a Kingdom as part of this process.

I'll have to bow to your knowledge of the times and when I post this to the timelines page I'll add this recommendation in, whereby as part of the peace treaty Ferdinand III HRE grants Savoy sovereignty and the right of the Duke of Savoy to call himself King. After which Savoy becomes independent of the HRE.

Thanks again for your help and suggestions, both you and Grey Wolf, the further this timeline goes the more complex the butterflies become.

[Quiet_Man]

(1645) April to June. The rebuilding of London was now in full swing and many were employed in the various tasks involved, reasonable weather helped too. The largest task was the setting up of the Royal Parade running in a straight line From Hyde Park through to the Tower of London. Wide enough to parade an army down with the offices of Government on either side it was designed specifically with the view to impress (or intimidate) visitors with the might and power of Britain.
Elections were held in Ireland for the British Parliament uniting that realm with Britain. The Cross of St Patrick was now flown outside the British Parliament along with those of the other nations under Parliament. Discussions were also underway to bring Greater Normandy into the franchise.
Henry and Parliament also discussed with concern the war between the HRE and the Ottoman’s, though they could do little unless invited and financed by the Emperor such was the precarious state of Britain’s own finances.
In British North America the first elections were held for the Commonwealth representatives to the crown, the 6 men elected were to have observer status at the British Parliament though as yet no (official) voice.

The Dutch also had their concerns about the Ottoman’s, though like the British they had no desire to go where they weren’t invited.
Henry’s daughter Christina Elizabeth marries William II von Nassau-Dillenburg, Prince of Orange.

Christian of Denmark and Gustav of Sweden were in talks about trade and mutual assistance. The matter of the Ottoman’s came up with both deciding that a threat to Austria was a very definite threat to them. Envoys were sent offering assistance should Emperor Ferdinand III require it.

In France Queen Anne manages to raise a second army under the Duc d’Enghien and start to restore order in the regions around the capital. Although the army is pitiful compared to previous French armies, it is more than enough to overwhelm the small rebel forces holding the towns and countryside around Paris.

In the HRE, the Emperor Ferdinand is looking for allies, preferably from Roman Catholic states, though only Poland-Lithuania would seem to be in any fit condition to send any aid. He dismisses the offer from his former enemies Denmark and Sweden thinking only that they’d wish to seize more land.

In Spain the loyalist victory is met with relief rather than celebration, the flight of the Kings son with the rebels is still a matter of some concern to the dynasty. Philip himself has decided that reconstruction not foreign adventurism will be the policy of Spain for the next few years and rebuffs Papal attempts to get involved with the HRE.

Savoy continues to try and take Florence, though few battles have been fought, both sides mostly manoeuvring, looking for an advantage.

Ottoman and HRE armies meet in a series of battles as the Ottoman’s advance on Vienna. Ferdinands troops are defeated outside of Szentgotthárd, and Bratislava and the Ottomans reach Vienna to put it under siege by the beginning of July.


In the Papal States Pope Innocent calls for a Christian alliance to fend off the Ottomans. This is a difficult time however for most western European states as the wars have taken their toll on the nations and none seem too keen to get involved with another one.

Elsewhere, Michael Cardozo becomes 1st Jewish lawyer in Brazil.

[DAv]

Looks like there's going to be a greater Ottoman presence in Europe in this TL... And Britain's going to have decent architecture? Pure ASB

[Quiet_Man]

(1645) July to September. In the Royal courts of Europe there is turmoil over the Ottoman advance. Not one of the major Catholic states is prepared to send an army to relieve Vienna, some like France and Savoy are simply unable too, others like Spain and Poland-Lithuania simply unwilling.
In desperation Ferdinand III turns to his former enemies Sweden and Denmark both of whom do not wish for the Ottomans to be any closer than they are. Gustav and Christian assemble their armies in preparation to march to relieve Vienna.

In Britain, Henry and Parliament are approached by Hannibal Sehested the Danish ambassador to see if they would support the Danish Swedish alliance. Though reluctant through the financial straits Britain was in, it was decided to send half the Army in Greater Normandy to join the Northern Alliance forces assembling in Saxony. Henry placed his son James in overall command of the British regiments, though James was told in no uncertain terms that he was there to listen and learn from General Leslie and to follow his “suggestions”. Prince Rupert from the Palatinate was also along as James’ cavalry commander. Henry though feeling that the army would acquit itself well, was very well aware of just how inexperienced the army was.

The Dutch also respond to requests for support from Denmark and Sweden with Several regiments under the Prince of Orange joining the British as they marched east.

The Army of the Northern Alliance assembled at Leipzig, numbering about 45,000 it was agreed that Gustav of Sweden would be in overall command with Christian, James and William as his seconds. Though the British and Dutch had limited logistic supplies arrangements had been made with various Duchy’s and Sees as well as Austria proper to supply the army en-route.

Vienna had been under siege for nearly 2 months before the Northern Alliance, joined by 18,500 Austrian troops met the Ottoman army in battle. Historians have never been able to understand why the Grand Vizier Nevesinli Salih Pasha allowed them to approach so close to Vienna, it’s known from reports that Ottoman scouts were aware of the progress of the Alliance, yet they made no move to hinder or stop them. The city itself was nearing breaking with the walls breached by sappers in several places and the citizens facing starvation.
The allied armies set up on the high ground above the city on the Kahlenberg and faced an experienced Ottoman army of 70,000, with a further 30 to 40,000 troops scattered around the area for support purposes. The battle commenced when Ottoman troops tried to prevent the deployment of Allied troops only to be forced back with heavy losses by the British musketeers holding the centre of the line. Danish and Swedish forces surged forward on the left flank in an attempt to outflank the Ottoman’s only to face a massive counter attack ordered by the Grand Vizier Nevesinli Salih Pasha which drove them back towards their original position. It was at this point that Gustav himself led one of his famous cavalry charges into the exposed flank of the Ottoman counter attack, causing it to fall back in confusion though unfortunately leaving Gustav badly wounded. The Austrian’s on the right flank had also attempted to relieve the siege on the city though they struggled against the counter defences the Ottoman’s had placed behind their lines.
Both armies had now been fighting for 6 hours and a pause came over the battle as lines were redrawn and reserves brought forward.
At noon battle recommenced with the Ottoman’s attacking the centre of the line held by the British and Dutch musketeers only to be thrown back by the weight of fire. British and Dutch in the centre then took the initiative, and advanced steadily, their flanks protected by Danish and Austrian cavalry in constant skirmish with Ottoman Sipahis, the lines closed to the Ottoman centre and the Britannic-Dutch killing zone, volley fire commenced. British light artillery had also been moved up with the skirmish lines and commenced to use chain shot to blast holes in the Ottoman lines. As in the battles in France, the deadly new tactics of the Northern Alliance tore apart the Ottoman regiments facing them who had never faced such massed firepower before. Grand Vizier Nevesinli Salih Pasha finally ordered the Janissaries to charge the Britannic-Dutch lines with the elite Sipahis keeping the Allied cavalry from supporting the centre. The resulting massacre of the Janissaries finally caused the centre of the Ottoman lines to collapse. This was the point at which Christian of Denmark and General Horn of Sweden launched a mass cavalry charge themselves, punching through the Ottoman’s lines and causing a rout of the Ottoman army. During the chaos of the Ottoman retreat Prince Rupert and several quads of British cavalry managed to seize the Ottoman supply train along with the wives and retainers of several Ottoman nobles. 16 hours after the battle had started an exhausted Northern Alliance army bedded down still on the field of battle. Casualties were very high, of an army of 57,500 almost half were dead or likely to die from their wounds. Ottoman casualties were higher an estimated 45,000 dead on the field including Grand Vizier Nevesinli Salih Pasha who had been executed by the remaining Janissaries. The remains of the Ottoman army itself retreated back into Hungary, no longer a real threat to Austria.
3 days after the battle Gustav Adolphus King of Sweden died from his wounds. His body was transported with honours back to Stockholm where it was interred at the Riddarholmskyrkan, (Church of Riddarholmen)
Reinforcements from Bavaria, Franconia and Swabia finally made it to Vienna a week after the battle bringing food and supplies for the populace. At this point the Northern Alliance armies led by King Christian of Denmark with Prince James of Britain, William of Orange and General Gustave Karlsson Horn at his side marched through the city to the adulation of the citizens and back to the north.

[pompejus]

Originally Posted by Quiet_Man

Elsewhere, Michael Cardozo becomes 1st Jewish lawyer in Brazil.

In Portugese Brazil? I didn't realise the Protugese were tollerant enough towards the jews to allow that.

[Quiet_Man]

Originally Posted by pompejus

In Portugese Brazil? I didn't realise the Protugese were tollerant enough towards the jews to allow that.

It really happened in OTL as well, I just added it for background ambience here.

[pompejus]

Originally Posted by Quiet_Man

It really happened in OTL as well, I just added it for background ambience here.

Ah, the Portugese must have been more tolerant than i realised.

Btw speaking about Brazil, I assume the Dutch still have control of part of it like OTL?

[Quiet_Man]

Originally Posted by pompejus

Ah, the Portugese must have been more tolerant than i realised.

Btw speaking about Brazil, I assume the Dutch still have control of part of it like OTL?

Yes they do, the weakness of Spain has allowed them to strengthen it and increase its size. Spain and Portugal are still united in TTL and will remain a threat to the colony, though at the moment there are no plans to deal with it yet.

[Grey Wolf]

A very dramatic battle

What is the make-up of the Franconian forces ? Were the bishoprics secularised ? Or have the 'other' Brandenburgs expanded into it ? I assume its not part of Bavaria here, or it would be lumped together with Bavarian forces

Sorry if I missed this from a previous instalment

Poor old Gustavus Adolphus, always destined to die in battle (he did in my timeline too, albeit as a youth !). Is Christina his only heir here as in OTL ? Is she a hermaphrodite ?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

[Jammy]

Originally Posted by Grey Wolf

A very dramatic battle

Agreed.
Is Prince Rupert the same Rupert from OTL

[Grey Wolf]

Originally Posted by Jammy

Agreed.
Is Prince Rupert the same Rupert from OTL

I would assume so, since the POD is Henry Frederick living, and Elizabeth Stuart, Rupert's mother, was Henry's sister, therefore would not be affected by the POD, would marry as per OTL, and have the children roughly speaking of OTL.

IMHO anyway, that's what's being done here I think...

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

[Quiet_Man]

Originally Posted by Grey Wolf

A very dramatic battle

What is the make-up of the Franconian forces ? Were the bishoprics secularised ? Or have the 'other' Brandenburgs expanded into it ? I assume its not part of Bavaria here, or it would be lumped together with Bavarian forces

Sorry if I missed this from a previous instalment

Poor old Gustavus Adolphus, always destined to die in battle (he did in my timeline too, albeit as a youth !). Is Christina his only heir here as in OTL ? Is she a hermaphrodite ?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

The Ottoman invasion shortly after the disastrous religious wars in central Germany found the Franconian forces very weak in manpower. Though still centred around Würzburg it had enclosed a number of other "fallen" statelets around itself and was undergoing quite a bit of internal restructuring. It's not part of Bavaria though I must admit I was tempted to increase the size of Bavaria during the war. Secularisation of the Bishoprics had only just started in TTL at the time of the invasion and that prevented a larger army being sent to aid the Austrians.

Christina is married to Henry's older son James and whilst technically that would make James the heir to the Swedish throne it was agreed at his betrothal to allow the younger brother, Robert to inherit through his mother Maria Elisabet of Sweden, daughter of Charles IX and his second wife Christina of Holstein-Gottorp. Robert is married to Sophie Auguste, a Princess (his cousin once removed I believe) of Holstein-Gottorp.

[Quiet_Man]

Originally Posted by Grey Wolf

I would assume so, since the POD is Henry Frederick living, and Elizabeth Stuart, Rupert's mother, was Henry's sister, therefore would not be affected by the POD, would marry as per OTL, and have the children roughly speaking of OTL.

IMHO anyway, that's what's being done here I think...

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

This is correct

[DAv]

Another quality update there. The Northern Alliance seems to be on a roll from here on in though how long will it be before internal pressure begins to show?

[arctic warrior]

Dramatic battle. This will really enhance the standing of the Nordic Kingdoms. A far away campaign for the Nordic but not impossible. This should serve to have the Poland-Lithuania mind their own business.

[Iñaki]

Originally posted by Quiet_Man
In Spain the loyalist victory is met with relief rather than celebration, the flight of the Kings son with the rebels is still a matter of some concern to the dynasty. Philip himself has decided that reconstruction not foreign adventurism will be the policy of Spain for the next few years and rebuffs Papal attempts to get involved with the HRE.

Very well made with these last updates Quiet_Man, also Spain seems that could stay at the fall of the XVII century in TTL in a position similar to the reign of Charles III at late XVIII century.

[Guilherme Loureiro]

Originally Posted by pompejus

In Portugese Brazil? I didn't realise the Protugese were tollerant enough towards the jews to allow that.

Policy towards Jews changed a lot from time to time, but as a rule, the Portuguese tended to be somewhat tolerant of Jews

[Quiet_Man]

(1645) October to December. The victory at Vienna was met with rejoicing throughout northern Europe and with cold disdain throughout southern Europe save only in Vienna itself. The HRE though still at war with the Ottoman’s were in no position to take the war to them and so negotiated a peace treaty with them that led to a status quo ante situation.
Henry met his son and the army in Calais, praising them as defenders of Christianity and offering them their nation’s thanks. Of much more interest to Henry was the seized war chest that James had brought with him. Even though it had been divided up equally between the 5 nations fighting, the sum brought home was still in the region of £1,000,000 money the coffers of Britain needed.
The first of the new British long range warships was launched, designed for extended time at sea it main use was as an anti piracy vessel.
In Henricia (OTL California and Baha California) the colony is finally declared self sufficient.
Parliament agrees the adoption of the Gregorian calendar; this will bring the dates of Britain and its colonies into line with most of Western Europe. This meant that 10 days were dropped in November shortening the month, and led to riots with people wanting their lost eleven days! It is also led to the British “Budget Day” being the 6th April; it used to be on the “Quarter Day”, i.e. 28th March but because Henry and Parliament had lost eleven day's taxes that year the financial year was extended.
This was also the year of another cold hard winter and although some of London was rebuilt, many still died amongst the old and very young from exposure to the elements.

In Sweden King Robert William is crowned of the royal house of Vasa-Stuart.

In France there was grim satisfaction that the regions around Paris were now firmly under the control of the Crown.

The Dutch were now looking to further their trading investment and looked to cut into Britain’s and Denmark’s interests if necessary.

Savoy still struggled to conquer Florence/Tuscany, so far they only held the ground their soldiers stood upon as revolts fired up in the areas they thought conquered.

[DAv]

Well the Dutch could be heading for a fall pretty soon... And the new funds could very much help with that.