Henry the Great.

[Quiet_Man]

Originally Posted by wannis

I see the point, but, honestly, for me it's one of the more unlikely features of your TL that people are ready to leave their homelands, and other countries are ready to accept them, to such a degree that it really makes a demographic difference (Catholics becoming a minority in Ireland, Irish taking over Brittany, etc.). That looks more 20th century than 17th century to me. Plus, I don't think that 17th-century Bretons really would have welcomed the Irish as brethren - the Celtic revival really came about with Romanticism only, and for the Bretons the Irish would have been only a bunch of foreigners crowding into their land.
FWIW, if I recall correctly, when the "cuius regio, eius religio" rule was introduced in Germany in the 16th century, far more people changed their confession than emigrated, even though that would have involved emigration only to another German-speaking principality.
Lastly, as the example of the Huguenots shows, these religious emigrants would mostly go to the big cities in their new home countries (London, Berlin) or settle newly colonised areas, like swamps, not settle tightly among existing populations in the countryside.
But these "population exchanges" are important to your TL, and anyway Henry seems to be an utilitarianist avant le mot, so this certainly gives a special flavour to your TL.

I see what you mean and yes this timeline would not work as well unless there was mass population movement. It certainly requires a leap of faith that the Breton's would accept native Irish, though certainly the language (Gael) would have similarities however as the Breton's were becoming an oppressed minority themselves I figured why not, certainly the natives of Connaught were amongst the last of the really warlike Irish that the British had successfully oppressed over the previous century.

[Grey Wolf]

Originally Posted by wannis

Irish and Scottish making trouble all over France - interesting.
But I must say that your TL makes much more use of what today would be called "Ethnic cleansing" than OTL - the only comparable event in OTL I remember is the exodus of the Huguenots from France.

From what I've read recently of the Thirty Years War there was a sort of parallel along religious lines, forcing out Protestants from Catholic enclaves and vice-versa, especially when a crusading bishop came along wanting to re-catholicise his bishopric/see (independent). Whilst not ethnic in direction, it could provide a definite sort of example for other rulers who wish to get rid of unwanted elements of their population

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

[wannis]

Originally Posted by Quiet_Man

I see what you mean and yes this timeline would not work as well unless there was mass population movement. It certainly requires a leap of faith that the Breton's would accept native Irish, though certainly the language (Gael) would have similarities however as the Breton's were becoming an oppressed minority themselves I figured why not, certainly the natives of Connaught were amongst the last of the really warlike Irish that the British had successfully oppressed over the previous century.

On the languages - while a linguist would be able to point out grammatical similarities and related words, Irish Gaelic and Breton are not mutually understandable, not in their written forms and even less in their spoken forms. They are much more different than English and German or Icelandic, to take eaxamples from the Germanic group of languages. At most, a few stray words would be immediately recognisable for speakers of both languages. (This would work much better with Bretion and Welsh, which are from the same - Brythonic - branch of Celtic).

I don't want to sound like a quibbler - I'm really enjoying your TL a lot, somehow it's just easier to point out quibbles than to find new ways of saying "Great Job"!

[Quiet_Man]

Originally Posted by wannis

On the languages - while a linguist would be able to point out grammatical similarities and related words, Irish Gaelic and Breton are not mutually understandable, not in their written forms and even less in their spoken forms. They are much more different than English and German or Icelandic, to take eaxamples from the Germanic group of languages. At most, a few stray words would be immediately recognisable for speakers of both languages. (This would work much better with Bretion and Welsh, which are from the same - Brythonic - branch of Celtic).

I don't want to sound like a quibbler - I'm really enjoying your TL a lot, somehow it's just easier to point out quibbles than to find new ways of saying "Great Job"!

Oh well there goes another one of my assumptions

I guess it'll just have to be another "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" alliance.

[wannis]

Originally Posted by Grey Wolf

From what I've read recently of the Thirty Years War there was a sort of parallel along religious lines, forcing out Protestants from Catholic enclaves and vice-versa, especially when a crusading bishop came along wanting to re-catholicise his bishopric/see (independent). Whilst not ethnic in direction, it could provide a definite sort of example for other rulers who wish to get rid of unwanted elements of their population

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

The point is, as far as I remember, this mostly didn't result in mass movements - the number of people who actually preferred emigration to changing their confession was rarely demogrphically significant.

[AJNolte]

Originally Posted by wannis

On the languages - while a linguist would be able to point out grammatical similarities and related words, Irish Gaelic and Breton are not mutually understandable, not in their written forms and even less in their spoken forms. They are much more different than English and German or Icelandic, to take eaxamples from the Germanic group of languages. At most, a few stray words would be immediately recognisable for speakers of both languages. (This would work much better with Bretion and Welsh, which are from the same - Brythonic - branch of Celtic).

I don't want to sound like a quibbler - I'm really enjoying your TL a lot, somehow it's just easier to point out quibbles than to find new ways of saying "Great Job"!

Yeah, the two different Celtic languages are going to have to be fused somehow, and I think Breton would dominate--unless there are a whole lot of Irish there.

Of course, I could see more Irish coming in as it becomes clear that Britany will be a welcoming environment.

Perhaps the initial exile is primarily of Irish fighting-men and nobility, with their families following later (this happened, all be it more gradually, ITTL with America). These initial immigrants could provide the "shock troops" of the Breton rebellion, and once it is shown that the Irish will be welcomed Henry could encourage a bunch more to emigrate, thereby weakening his internal problems and strengthening an ally.

[Grey Wolf]

Originally Posted by wannis

The point is, as far as I remember, this mostly didn't result in mass movements - the number of people who actually preferred emigration to changing their confession was rarely demogrphically significant.

Well, there were a lot of refugees wandering around all over the place

I agree with what you say about reconversion, but I think the main reason it wasn't MASS movements was because the places involved were relatively small, a city with a few towns and a load of villages type of size

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

[wannis]

Originally Posted by Grey Wolf

Well, there were a lot of refugees wandering around all over the place.

In the 30 years war? Certainly, but most were just fleeing the marauding mercenary armies, who didn't often even care what religion the areas they pillaged adhered to, especially in the later phases of the war.

Originally Posted by Grey Wolf

I agree with what you say about reconversion, but I think the main reason it wasn't MASS movements was because the places involved were relatively small, a city with a few towns and a load of villages type of size

It's not about "masses" - what I want to say is that the emigrations rarely were big enough as a share of the population of an area to change the ethnic or religious make-up of a region significantly. The religious make-up changed mostly by the majority of the "unwanted" confession converting to the established religion of the region. So it's a huge deviation from OTL that Ireland becomes minority Catholic by huge masses of Irish emigrating to France.

[Quiet_Man]

Originally Posted by AJNolte

Yeah, the two different Celtic languages are going to have to be fused somehow, and I think Breton would dominate--unless there are a whole lot of Irish there.

Of course, I could see more Irish coming in as it becomes clear that Britany will be a welcoming environment.

Perhaps the initial exile is primarily of Irish fighting-men and nobility, with their families following later (this happened, all be it more gradually, ITTL with America). These initial immigrants could provide the "shock troops" of the Breton rebellion, and once it is shown that the Irish will be welcomed Henry could encourage a bunch more to emigrate, thereby weakening his internal problems and strengthening an ally.

That's pretty much it, when the Huguenot's were transferred out of La Rochelle by Henry's agreement with Richelieu it was for an equal transfer of Irish dissidents in return. What actually happened was the British removed (forcibly in some cases) far more dissidents and scattered them up and down the French Atlantic coast as the French had no way of keeping track of the numbers, many displaced Irish however did not thrive and survive in this new land. There are large groups of Irish up and down the Atlantic coast, a lot have migrated north into Brittany (about 100,000) They are outnumbered by native Breton's by about 3 to 1, though are far more aggressive. In Ireland itself the population dipped from 1 million to about 700,000 (over 12 years), with Huguenot and Scottish immigration being far larger than OTL coupled with a slightly higher rate of conversion amongst native Catholics. means that protestants number about 500,000.

[wannis]

Originally Posted by Quiet_Man

That's pretty much it, when the Huguenot's were transferred out of La Rochelle by Henry's agreement with Richelieu it was for an equal transfer of Irish dissidents in return. What actually happened was the British removed (forcibly in some cases) far more dissidents and scattered them up and down the French Atlantic coast as the French had no way of keeping track of the numbers, many displaced Irish however did not thrive and survive in this new land. There are large groups of Irish up and down the Atlantic coast, a lot have migrated north into Brittany (about 100,000) They are outnumbered by native Breton's by about 3 to 1, though are far more aggressive.

With that ratio, I'd assume that Breton will emerge as the winning language in the end, probably with a lot of Gaelic loan words and a somewhat simplified grammar.
A lot depends on whether the Irish immigrants contain significantly more men than women (Irish marrying Breton girls is good for Breton as language), and what the chancery language of the now independent Britanny will be (maybe both languages, or maybe Latin for some time, as it is not privilegising one of the communities and it also is not French ?)

[arctic warrior]

Originally Posted by Quiet_Man

(1644) August. Christian of Denmark also had his work cut out for him. Integrating both German and Danish regions into a cohesive realm would take up every spare minute of his time. It was a very difficult balancing act making sure that all felt fairly treated. One of his first acts was to make sure that any dissidents to his rule were shipped off to New Denmark (Puerto Rico), Guadeloupe or Martinique. He also appointed Corfitz Ulfeldt as governor general of the Danish Caribbean Territories, figuring his political machinations would do less harm there than in Denmark. Oddly enough Ulfeldt was pleased with his new posting, seeing it as a way of becoming very wealthy.

Sweden was busy incorporating Brandenburg and Saxony into their empire. Like Denmark had with her new holdings; Gustav saw the need to give them a great deal of autonomy, treating them as independent kingdoms in their own right. As for the ordinary people of Brandenburg and Saxony, they saw little change in their lives other than a new road network being built upon British lines. To them one Emperor was pretty much the same as another.

Władysław IV of Poland-Lithuania was not a happy man, the self styled “King of Sweden” (although he had no control over Sweden whatsoever and had never set foot in that country) now felt hemmed in by Gustav Adolphus and looked for an opportunity to bring Sweden down.

You're right I think about Corfitz Ulfeld, he'd love being in the tropics, shovelling gold into his own pockets and speaking french. And be the head of all those dissatisfied - oh, he'll love it. Scheming and pondering ways to bring Christian 5. down.

Wladyslaw IV is going to be a very unhappy man I guess. Taking on Sweden allied to TTL Denmark.

[Quiet_Man]

(1644) September to December. Much of this time was spent rebuilding or re-housing London’s population. The plans for the new city were well in advance with wide roads and tree lined streets spreading the city further and wider than before. Wooden buildings with thatched roofs were banned, although many were currently living in them temporarily, the plan was to use brick or stone. The damage and cost to the economy was massive and even though Britain’s economy was booming there simply was not enough money at times to pay for all the work at home and abroad that needed to be done. The temptation to increase taxes on the colonies abroad to pay for the rebuilding was frequently discussed, though on this Henry and Parliament were in agreement that to do so might just kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. It was when Henry heard from Roger Williams his ambassador to the Haudenosaunee about the willingness of people to pay for a patent of nobility that Henry proposed to Parliament a novel way of raising funds. The result was the creation of the British order of Knights Mercantile, a life peerage giving the holder (though not their children) the right to place the title “Sir” before their name. At a cost of £5,000 each Henry and parliament soon had enough to cover the initial costs of rebuilding London. There was in some quarter’s outrage at the King selling titles, though many also realised just how precarious the finances of the land were. The result was a massive boost to the popularity of the King and moved saved cash back into circulation.
In India the British aid to ShahbuddinMohammed Shah Jahan the ruler of the Mughal Empire enabled him to expel the Portugese from Bengal. In return for trading privileges the British supplied arms and training for the Mughal armies.
Now that China was at peace, the British stepped up their efforts in trade and commerce calling in at coastal towns and cities along its entire coastline.
In North America the British colonial effort continued with new lands in the interior being explored and opened up for colonists. The usual British method being to find a friendly native tribe if available and support them against their enemies and gain some of the land taken. Though many sub tribes had simply been outnumbered and absorbed into the colonists without resort to violence. Tribes such as the Haudenosaunee and Tsalagi were treat with respect by the colonial authorities (though not always by the colonists) and could have any sources of concern dealt with by the British ambassadors to their territories. Trade was brisk with agricultural implements and tools being popular with the tribes in exchange for furs and escorts.
Some British colonists were also moving to the African Supply forts, particularly Capetown.

The Dutch trading empire continued to expand, often in friendly competition with the British and Danes and occasionally in hostile competition with the Spanish and Portuguese. Dutch settlers too were moving to Van Diemensland and also to Capetown mixing and mingling with the British colonists to clear the land for farms and industry.

The Danes also continued to expand their trading links in India though as yet not into China. Their colonies on the Gold Coast and New Denmark were now turning in a tidy profit for Danish investors.

The Swedes continued to send small groups of colonists to New Sweden, though this was difficult and expensive as their shipping capacity was small and mostly designed for the Baltic. They did however start exploiting St Kitts and were soon making a small profit in trade for the new owners.

The civil war in France continued without pause with small bands of outlaws attacking towns and villages for food and coin, whilst larger bands of mercenaries and “patriots” took over towns and the lands supporting them. What remained of the royal Army was kept around Paris to protect the King.

In the Papal States a new Pope was elected. Pope Innocent X came to power promising to heal the differences caused by his predecessor. His first act being to remove the Papal Bull requiring all Roman Catholics to aid in the restoration and reformation of those Christian nations dwelling in error from the true faith. Following this up with delegations to the Northern alliance seeking to smooth over the difficulties caused by the previous Pope.

In Spain, the loyalists finally took Burgos and started to make inroads on the north of the country. De Melo and his supporters were now planning on moving over the Pyrenees into France and carving out a new Kingdom there.

[Jammy]

Interesting, clever idea about selling titles
Sounds like France is about to get even more nasty.

[pompejus]

Is it possible to make a world map? Or perhaps a list of what country has which colony?

[DAv]

Good grief France is never going to be able to recover at this rate. And it seems that North America will soon be British in its entirerity. Though it seems the spread west will be hampered by the Native Americans keeping some influence on the land.

[Quiet_Man]

Originally Posted by DAv

Good grief France is never going to be able to recover at this rate. And it seems that North America will soon be British in its entirerity. Though it seems the spread west will be hampered by the Native Americans keeping some influence on the land.

North America is still very much a paper Empire for Britain, there are more people living in London after the fire than British in America.

France will recover to an extent, the people have still got a lot in common. Though the rise towards absolutism has been stopped in its tracks there.

[stevep]

Quiet Man

Only thing I will say is that with France in turmoil and the empire checked I suspect that Britain and the Netherlands will be increasingly concerned with their main economic rival. I.e. etc other. Historically the two, while they had some common interests, were far more in opposition on many issues. It is likely that sooner or later the two's diverging interests will cause tension.

Steve

[Quiet_Man]

(1645) January to March. The year got off to a very quiet start, with Britain only involved in diplomacy, colonisation and mercantile activities. Efforts to raise funding for various military endeavours and the rebuilding of London had been reached, though there was little remaining for anything else. Henry spent much of his time going over plans for the rebuilding of London making sure that the designs included adequate housing as well as churches, parks and workplaces. His other over-riding desire though was to have his capital to be seen as an extension of British power, security and wealth, not a grim overcrowded mess. This would be the work of decades and Henry himself would not live to see the full extent of the design that would earn London the title of the “City of splendour”.
Whilst the state was concerned only with reconstruction there was still much private investment in various endeavours, land drainage, mining and new industries were all targets for investment by Britain’s burgeoning middle class many of whom were also purchasing plots for town houses in the New London suburbs. For the poor of Britain though it was a different story, many were still homeless and unemployment was rife, crime and disease in the tent cities outside of London was at an all time high. The only road for many was to take indentured servitude in the colonies and it was from this outward pressure that expanded the British colonial presence far and away above any other European nation. It was estimated that over 50% of new colonists died within the first 2 years of reaching a new colony, though those that survived usually ended up doing well for themselves after coming out of servitude. Life on the frontiers was hard and yet hard work and commitment was enough to create a far better life for many than staying in London would have done. Yet it was not only the British that were settling in Britain’s colonies, in New Britain the influx was mainly from the German speaking protestants fleeing oppression in Catholic Bishoprics and Sees, who were successfully settling into the north and spreading west. Mostly being peasants they showed no inclination to settle in the towns and cities preferring new land that was theirs (or would be once they had worked off their indenture to the crown)

Spanish rebels crossed the Pyrenees fleeing King Philip and join up with rebels in Languedoc fighting the French crown, lead by De Melo and being veteran troops they swiftly destroyed all French Loyal forces in the field then started negotiating with the rebels.

In Spain the forces loyal to King Philip continued mopping up any remaining rebel forces left, refusing to send troops into France to remove De Melo when asked too by the French ambassador.

Savoy invades Florence on the pretext of Ferdinando II de' Medici the grand Duke of Tuscany plotting to seize Milan. The Pope wants to intervene, but Venetian troops massing on his northern borders prevent any action.

In Poland-Lithuania Władysław IV started talks with his Cossack Hetmen to see if they will support an invasion of the Swedish holdings to the north of Lithuania. The answer was no, Władysław IV was simply not trusted to keep his promises.

In the Ottoman Empire the call was sent out to assemble the armies of the Sultan for a march into Austria.

[DAv]

This war with the Otoomans will prove to be interesting. Will Britain get involved as an Ally of Venice at all?

[Grey Wolf]

Savoy crowned their Duke as King and moved to consolidate her Italian possessions and increase trade with Venice and the Northern Alliance. A possible campaign against the Papal States and Florence to unite all of Northern Italy was considered.

A bit late commenting on this one, but I think this is a first and therefore ought to cause some serious repurcussions, including those nations who refuse to acknowledge Savoy as a kingdom

As far as I can see, kingdoms of OTL were always created by someone else - either the Pope gave a crown to someone, or an overlord did. I believe this even applies to Prussia where the 'King in Prussia' thing I think was from the King of Poland ? With regard to Bavaria etc of OTL, it was done by Napoleon as Emperor upon the disolution of the HRE

So, as far as I can see, for Savoy to unilaterally decide it is a kingdom would be quite unprecendented and would have some serious effects. These would of course include the starting of a precedent if they are allowed to get away with it

Best Regards
Grey Wolf