Carving Up the UK

[Dean_the_Young]

Inspired by Hermanubis's "Carving Up the USA", because I'm a vengeful little Ameriwanker. Maybe I'll start one on Russia or China soon as well.

So here it is:

When and how would the UK be divied up for other powers?

[M79]

Why carve it up when it might be more plausible just to let it stay divided?

Otherwise you could have France invade somewhere and Cornwall, Wales, Isle of Man, and Northumbria remain independent or part of Scotland. Lancastershire could become a satellite state of somebody and the Sussex, Wessex, and Essex areas granted seperation for easier control.

[MrP]

Well, the 28 Days Later idea would be perfect. Let the contagion die out, then recolonise the place.

Or:

• Russians invade Scotland
• French invade Wales and Ireland
• Germans conquer the southern UK
• A Stars and Stripes Yankwank?

[Thande]

Originally Posted by M79

Why carve it up when it might be more plausible just to let it stay divided?

Otherwise you could have France invade somewhere and Cornwall, Wales, Isle of Man, and Northumbria remain independent or part of Scotland. Lancastershire could become a satellite state of somebody and the Sussex, Wessex, and Essex areas granted seperation for easier control.

[MrP] Gaaaahhhh!!!![/MrP]

I'm hoping that was just poorly worded


Anyway:

This is the after-1900 forum, so it must be a POD after 1900.

Basically I think the only options there are either increased nationalism and devolution as per OTL but more so, or else a successful German invasion in WW1 or WW2 (doubtful, but...) divvying up the country into several puppet states - which could just be lines on a map.

England is unlikely to balkanise on its own. The Cornish independence movement is the closest thing and that's a joke. Independent Scotland is always a possibility, Wales rather less so, and the Ireland situation is well documented.

Having said that, there was a (only quasi-serious) Isle of Wight independence party in the 70s

[M79]

OK, trigger a post-Fashoda incident that causes France and Germany to work together against Britain and launch a surprising attack maybe 30 minutes after declaration of war. Or play the diplomatic game just a little differently where the alliances shift and pit the UK and Russia against France and Germany with the Ottomans, Italians, Spanish, and A-H as minors. Maybe have a feint with someone's moderate sized fleet sailing into the Irish Sea to distract the Royal Navy then send the High Seas Fleet and balance of the German forces into the Thames or land loads of German troops somewhere on the British East Coast to decimate the UK.

[MrP]

Originally Posted by M79

OK, trigger a post-Fashoda incident that causes France and Germany to work together against Britain and launch a surprising attack maybe 30 minutes after declaration of war. Or play the diplomatic game just a little differently where the alliances shift and pit the UK and Russia against France and Germany with the Ottomans, Italians, Spanish, and A-H as minors. Maybe have a feint with someone's moderate sized fleet sailing into the Irish Sea to distract the Royal Navy then send the High Seas Fleet and balance of the German forces into the Thames or land loads of German troops somewhere on the British East Coast to decimate the UK.

OK, you just earned a real Gah! from me, old boy. Since I strongly suspect you didn't mean that the invaders would destroy one part in ten of the country.

[Calgacus]

The best opportunity since unification of England would be a successful Armada. But if we're talking post-1900, the best chance is German invasion and puppet states.

[M79]

By decimate I meant destroy one or two areas of note, not specifically 10% though, so sorry for poor use of the word. If the invasion focuses shelling/landings on only one area, say between Great Yarmouth to Whitstable, it would hit a fairly contained area. Would the coastal defenses at the Thames allow the Germans to hit near London/Gravesend or would they be trying more for Southend-on-sea or Colchester?

[MrP]

Originally Posted by M79

By decimate I meant destroy one or two areas of note, not specifically 10% though, so sorry for poor use of the word. If the invasion focuses shelling/landings on only one area, say between Great Yarmouth to Whitstable, it would hit a fairly contained area. Would the coastal defenses at the Thames allow the Germans to hit near London/Gravesend or would they be trying more for Southend-on-sea or Colchester?

Oh, I'm not really too bothered. American dictionaries even accept decimate as damage severely.

With a PoD after 1900 what you propose is quite practical. Not necessarily probable, but history is full of far more unlikely events!

[ninebucks]

1930s: Emergance of an explicitly national socialist Swedish state. Followed by similar developments in Norway and Denmark.

The Scandanavians, less scathed by the Depression, quickly catch up with mainland Europe in terms of industrial production. Investment into R&D is large.

1938: The charasmatic Swedish Kansler proposes a Scandanavian political union.

1941: The Olafsson-Molotov Pact is signed. Scandanavia and the USSR divide Finland between themselves.

1942: A fascist insurgency in northwest Germany is supported by Scandanavia. Northwest Germany is occupied and a puppet government is established.

1943: The League of Nations puts forward a peace plan for Germany, it is agreed that the Scandanavians shall withdraw, if the French (who have been occupied the industrial northeast) do so aswell. All parties agree, and elections are held in Germany. The fascists score an easy victory.

1944: Germany and Scandanavia become closely allied.

France goes to war with the Democratic Republic of Spain, accusing Madrid of backing revolutionary partisans in Her southern regions.

By this time, the Scandanavians have built a mighty fleet in the North and Baltic Seas.

1945: British and Scandanavian vessels become involved in a skirmish in the North Sea. Both sides claim the other started the conflagration. Relations quickly deteriorate.

Britain begins to accuse Scandanavia of uncivilised behaviour. Scandanavia retorts that Britain's constant insults make it difficult for Scandanavia to honour her dedication to the German peace process.

The argument continues, until, as if to put her foot down, Scandanavia reoccupies northern Germany, including the western industrial heartland. France strongly protests and threatens war, (although the prolonged guerilla war across the Pyrenees makes such a threat seem empty).

Britain, citing the LoN mandate, sets an ultimatum for Scandanavian withdrawal from Germany.

1946: Scandanavia declares war on Great Britain and launches an invasion fleet towards northeastern England. Under cover of fog and darkness, the fleet lands in Grimsby, beginning the (eventually) successful invasion of Britain.

~~~

Okay, so, divisions: the eastern half of England north of London is under direct military occupation. In common parlance, it is referred to as the Danelaw.

In Scotland and northwest England, the Kingdom of Scotland (under King William III, formerly Prince Vilhelm of Sweden).

In Wales, the Principality of Wales.

In the South, the Kingdom of England (under King Gustaf I, formerly Prince Gustav Adolf of Sweden). However, this entity is the most unstable, being host to many insurgents and partisans backed by European allies of independent Britain.

[Mysterius]

Originally Posted by MrP

Oh, I'm not really too bothered. American dictionaries even accept decimate as damage severely.

Dictionary.com is your friend.

I think the Oxford English Dictionary has a similar definition, too, so it's not just American.

[Origin: 1590–1600; < L decimātus, ptp. of decimāre to punish every tenth man chosen by lot, v. deriv. of decimus tenth, deriv. of decem ten]

—Usage note The earliest English sense of decimate is “to select by lot and execute every tenth soldier of (a unit).” The extended sense “destroy a great number or proportion of” developed in the 19th century: Cholera decimated the urban population. Because the etymological sense of one-tenth remains to some extent, decimate is not ordinarily used with exact fractions or percentages: Drought has destroyed (not decimated) nearly 80 percent of the cattle.

[Shimbo]

Originally Posted by M79

Cornwall, Wales, Isle of Man, and Northumbria remain independent or part of Scotland.

The Isle of Man is not and has never been part of the UK. It is a Crown Dependancy with its own parliament and its own laws.

I could see Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and at a push Cornwall becoming independent but splitting up the rest of England would be highly unlikely.

BTW: The voters in the north of England rejected a regional assembly and the government has given up on the idea.

[Grey Wolf]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Inspired by Hermanubis's "Carving Up the USA", because I'm a vengeful little Ameriwanker. Maybe I'll start one on Russia or China soon as well.

This is the original 'Carving Up Russia and China' thread if you're interested

http://www.alternatehistory.com/disc...ad.php?t=21568

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

[Tyr]

Cornwall independance isn't happening.
It is indeed a joke which has only recently gotten some small scale support from a few hundred people in Cornwall. Also Cornwall is a pretty hilly,rural area which if left to its own...hmm...
Well I'm currently working on a future EU thingy which has England split in to north and south. They are still called N+S England though and its just for easier local managment as everyone else around Europe is going all independant too.

Flag of Southern England:

[Tyr]

And Northern England:

[Thande]

Interesting...what's with the one lion on the southern flag?

Given how culturally distinct London is from the rest of the South, maybe there'd be another region made out of the greater London area.

Also where would you draw the north-south divide?

[Tyr]

Originally Posted by Thande

Interesting...what's with the one lion on the southern flag?

Given how culturally distinct London is from the rest of the South, maybe there'd be another region made out of the greater London area.

Also where would you draw the north-south divide?

Why the Humber of course (well Humberside anyway).

The southern lion: its the lion from the royal coat of arms, originally of Normandy. Emphasises the French/Norman influence on the south as opposed to the Viking influence on the north.

London..hmm maybe. That would be a bit odd though, it'd be a country in the middle of the south....Perhaps though.

[Thande]

Originally Posted by Leej

Why the Humber of course (well Humberside anyway).

Don't be daft, that includes most of Yorkshire, Lancashire, Liverpool, northern Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire in "the South". Not to mention the fact that that would result in your 'north' having a much smaller population than the South, even if London is separate.

This one strikes me as about right...

[Tyr]

Originally Posted by Thande

Don't be daft, that includes most of Yorkshire, Lancashire, Liverpool, northern Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire in "the South". Not to mention the fact that that would result in your 'north' having a much smaller population than the South, even if London is separate.

This one strikes me as about right...

That one includes lots that isn't the south though. Where is that map from?

And what do you say includes most of Yorkshire? The south? As Yorkshire would be well within the north.
And quality over quantity
Though yes I suppose London should be split...

[67th Tigers]

Originally Posted by Leej

Why the Humber of course (well Humberside anyway).

Nah, the Solent. You're all northerners!

How about an independent Wessex?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wessex_Regionalist_Party