Confederate Superpower

[ConfederateFly]

Can anybody think of a TL then post it with the Confederates somehow becoming a superpower in the military, navy, and territorrial matters?

[Straha]

a great power yes a superpower no. The northern 3rd of mexico,the spanish carribean and central america are the most they could get without giving thme the luck of the draka and ak-47s from uptime

[ConfederateFly]

Does anybody have a TL?

[Straha]

can't think of any CSA superpower TLs right now sorry

[ConfederateFly]

Does anybody else have a timeline for the Confederate Superpower?

[Beck Reilly]

A CSA superpower timeline would not be plausible. No timeline will have the CSA doing much better than the southern states did in OTL. Even if you assume that the CSA did as well as the ex-Confederate states of OTL (unlikely), you'll see that the Confederate GNP would be between $1.5 and $2 trillion dollars, making it the fourth largest economy in the world (under the USA, Japan, and China; directly above Germany, India, France, and the UK).

That would make the CSA a world power, but not a superpower.

[David S Poepoe]

Originally Posted by ConfederateFly

Does anybody else have a timeline for the Confederate Superpower?

Why the heck don't you post something substantial for once. You harp on about the same improbable subject. In the Confederate Navy debate Grey Wolf, Walter Kaufman and myself have repeatedly pointed out to you that your ATL is completely unlikely - if not impossible. You can no concept of how badly off the Confederacy would be. You don't even appear to have anything more than passing faint familiarity with Civil War history, its economic, socio-political and foreign policy, etc. sides.

I think it would be nice - instructive - if you really thought hard about a plausible ATL for your subject. It will mean that you will have to do more than the 3 minutes of research you usually do. It will also mean that your ATL will have to be much more developed, indepth and detailed. I've been sitting on a ATL Confederate Superpower that I've worked on, partly since I get interested in new historical PODs and fine tuning. My immediate suggestion is that you visit your local library and borrow a bunch of books that examine the military, political and foreign relations, etc. aspects of the Civil War. Don't make hollow declarations, give some thought to being realistic, there is cause and effect in history.

[Beck Reilly]

LOL, David....

My thoughts exactly.

[ConfederateFly]

Now I have one question for you since you know so much. Since the Confederacy didn't win then we wouldn't know what you sa may be wrong it could of happened but, since your a Library Assitant then you should know

[Beck Reilly]

Look, if you're going to write something, you have to know a little bit about the socio-economic factors of the time. You can't just write what you want history to be like. If you do that, you have to have ASB's. If not, you have to accept some of the changes that we suggest, not just plunge ahead with the same impossible timeline. I believe that if you look at mine, David's, and Grey Wolf's posts, you'll find some stuff to look up on Encarta or whatever. But until then, at least consider our suggestions.

[ConfederateFly]

I'm sorry everybody if I sound like a jerk tonight I have a headache and when I am sick I don't take critisicism well. I do need to do further research before I post, but I am just fascinated about how the Confederacy lasted for 4 years.

[David S Poepoe]

To quote Confederatefly:

"Now I have one question for you since you know so much."

That is one of the first statements that you have said that is true. Thankfully this time I didn't have to prove it to you, however my knowledge is not all encompassing but I do know where to find that which I don't know. Thats the axiom of research, not really knowing the fact but knowing how to locate it.

"Since the Confederacy didn't win then we wouldn't know what you sa[y] may be wrong it could of happened"

Wrong. We have the information on individuals, economics trends, technological developments, population growth and migration, etc., etc. that we can reasonably extrapolate, to a fairly high degree, the most likely outcomes.

"but, since your a Library Assitant then you should know"

Again, I can't disagree with you there. I've been working on an ATL for the past 3-4 hours and have consulted about 8 books, and thats solely about the first two years of the Civil War and in relation to the battles of Shiloh, Perrysville, Vicksburg and Atlanta - and my ATL doesn't even center on the Confederate States. I'm building the ground work to give some plausibility to my POD and gaining some familiarity with the events in order that I can at least debate my POD if someone questions it.

[Diamond]

That's the way to do it. Research, research, and then... more research. The first major TL I posted for you guys, a long time back - 'Mehmet's Legacy' - was torn to shreds due to faulty research and wrong assumptions. After thoroughly researching it's background, I've been able to turn it into the basis for a novel-in-progress. At some point next year, I'll be submitting it to publishers. The posters here were directly responsible for a lot of the ideas contained therein.

Just do a little research, Confederatefly. It will pay off. And just a suggestion - develop some other areas of interest besides the CSA and what their military would look like in 1870 or after allying with France or whatever.

[Grey Wolf]

I have a timeline in the Archives called 'Longer Crimean War'

The basic idea is

- The Crimean War goes on into 1856
This brings the USA and Great Britain into conflict
At the same time, France and Britain intervene in Mexico
This results in a reborn Iturbide empire in Mexico

- Civil war breaks out in the USA
Mexico joins the Confederacy
Britain and France are involved; historical emnity to USA
and great power politics

It makes more sense if you actually read the timeline !

But the outcome is that from the ACW the Confederacy emerges with the Southern half of the New Mexico territory, whilst Mexico also regains San Diego county (which they had not wanted to cede at Guadeloupe-Hidalgo, arguing that it was part of Baja)

The relationship between the Confederacy and the Union is always unstable but short of actual war - proxy wars are fought amongst the Indian Nations, and a larger role for the Mormons.

The CSA had its navy built on the British-French model, and continue with this.

I eventually timelined it to the 1930s and wrote 6 chapters of a novel set in the 1930s which can be found at :-

http://www.infinitywanderers.com/longercrimeanwar.html

Chapter 6 has some definite CSA mention

Grey Wolf

[tom]

ConfederateFly:
Maybe you can just decide not to post when you have a headache.
And I do sympathize...my time is very limited, and I know how hard it is to do the research. I also know how hard it can be to have one of your "children" criticized. But they can be made better this way. I plan to have a different and less ravaged (still pretty ravaged) Cuban Missile War world on this site's Interplanar Association than in the old Mosaic Earth thread because of the criticism I asked for and received.

[Xen]

Ive always wondered why people keep asking about SUPERPOWERS , historically there have been very few and the odds of any nation achieving such a status isn't very good. Ive seen everything ranging from a Papal Superpower to the Polish Superpower and I believe there was once a Swiss Superpower. What is the obsession with Superpowers? As powerful as China is, it is not a superpower, as potent as India is, it is not a superpower.

[Beck Reilly]

Xen, I think, although what you say is quite true, people like to think that any nation they want could, at some point, become THE dominant power in the world. It makes things more clearly defined and allows people to imagine a small nation, like Poland or Switzerland, becoming enormously powerful.

[Grey Wolf]

Originally Posted by Xen

Ive always wondered why people keep asking about SUPERPOWERS , historically there have been very few and the odds of any nation achieving such a status isn't very good. Ive seen everything ranging from a Papal Superpower to the Polish Superpower and I believe there was once a Swiss Superpower. What is the obsession with Superpowers? As powerful as China is, it is not a superpower, as potent as India is, it is not a superpower.

I think people mean Great Power and are just using an anachronistic term for it - after all the word super-power (or, dreadful thought hyper-power which I hear the USA called now) only make sense in comparison to some other pre-existing term for a BIG power.

So, if the question is whether the CSA could have become a GREAT POWER then we simply need to define what that means...

Grey Wolf

[ConfederateFly]

You could define a great power by its territory, economic, social, and military parts of the country. Also by its place on the world stage.

[Beck Reilly]

There's no way the Confederate States of America could become a superpower. It's sheer mathematics.

The highest that the CSA GNP is ever going to get is between $2 and $3 trillion, at the highest. That will make it either 2nd or 3rd on the world stage, at the highest.

In fact, it is likely that the CSA GNP, by the nature of the CSA economy, won't break $2 trillion.

The CSA has the potention to become a great power, yes. A superpower, no.