The Greater Norman Empire and its successor states.

[AJNolte]

Originally Posted by Iñaki

Today I begin to read this timeline and for the moment I am in the page 6 post 105, but before to finish reading, I not resist to make a simple comment:

Good work!

I find this amusing and enjoyable to read, also an interesting premise for your POD, and you have made a plaussible and imaginative approach to the human characters of TTL.

I'm glad you're enjoying it. As I've no idea what will happen in Spain your input would be greatly appreciated.

[Iñaki]

Originally posted by AJNolte
I'm glad you're enjoying it. As I've no idea what will happen in Spain your input would be greatly appreciated.

No problem, I promise you all my help in this very interesting TL, only that it last sometime, first I want to finish reading all your TL to know all the events and opinions to see how this alternate timeline have evolutioned.

Although I have some ideas if you are interested in reference of a possible butterfly of the death of Sancho II of Castilla during the siege of Zamora in 1072, the chaos theory and some accumulative minor changes caused by your POD could cause that Bellido Dolfos fails in his attempt of killing Sancho II because Sancho is saved by the intervention of the chief of his military forces, the famous Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar, known universally as The Cid Campeador (in OTL before all the events that made him famous, he had in 1072 a yet strong position in the affairs of the kingdom of Castilla, he was the principal military chief of the forces of his king Sancho II), Sancho II had a stronger and skiller military character that Alfonso VI his brother deposed that was deposed as king of Leon by Sancho II, it was the murder of Sancho II the cause that made of the defeated Alfonso VI the new king of Castilla and Leon, because Sancho II has a stronger and skiller character that Alfonso VI we could see a more stronger effort against muslims, but also we have realised that Sancho II had a great opposition in the kingdom of Leon against his rule, because an important part of the nobles continued to consider the legitime king of Leon to Alfonso VI while that considered Sancho II only the king of Castilla not of Leon, so a possible effort against muslim kingdoms of Iberian peninsula could be delayed sometime before Sancho crush the rebels.

But also being Sancho a more capable military leader that Alfonso and having the loyalty of a great warrior as El Cid, when the almoravids go in help of the taifas they will find a far stronger man as king of Castilla and Leon, in this case it is very possible that such great defeat for the castillians of the battle of Sagrajas in 1086 in OTL against the almoravids and the taifas armies would not happen, it is more probable a bloody draw between the Sancho II forces and the almoravids.

Also I have begin to search the names and forces of the taifas, the muslim kingdoms that succeed the Caliphate of Cordova after his desintegration and fall during the period of 1010-1031.

In any case I want to first finish to read the TL and after it will be a great pleasure to provide some help for spanish affairs in your TL.

Best regards

Iñaki

[AJNolte]

Originally Posted by Iñaki

No problem, I promise you all my help in this very interesting TL, only that it last sometime, first I want to finish reading all your TL to know all the events and opinions to see how this alternate timeline have evolutioned.

Although I have some ideas if you are interested in reference of a possible butterfly of the death of Sancho II of Castilla during the siege of Zamora in 1072, the chaos theory and some accumulative minor changes caused by your POD could cause that Bellido Dolfos fails in his attempt of killing Sancho II because Sancho is saved by the intervention of the chief of his military forces, the famous Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar, known universally as The Cid Campeador (in OTL before all the events that made him famous, he had in 1072 a yet strong position in the affairs of the kingdom of Castilla, he was the principal military chief of the forces of his king Sancho II), Sancho II had a stronger and skiller military character that Alfonso VI his brother deposed that was deposed as king of Leon by Sancho II, it was the murder of Sancho II the cause that made of the defeated Alfonso VI the new king of Castilla and Leon, because Sancho II has a stronger and skiller character that Alfonso VI we could see a more stronger effort against muslims, but also we have realised that Sancho II had a great opposition in the kingdom of Leon against his rule, because an important part of the nobles continued to consider the legitime king of Leon to Alfonso VI while that considered Sancho II only the king of Castilla not of Leon, so a possible effort against muslim kingdoms of Iberian peninsula could be delayed sometime before Sancho crush the rebels.

But also being Sancho a more capable military leader that Alfonso and having the loyalty of a great warrior as El Cid, when the almoravids go in help of the taifas they will find a far stronger man as king of Castilla and Leon, in this case it is very possible that such great defeat for the castillians of the battle of Sagrajas in 1086 in OTL against the almoravids and the taifas armies would not happen, it is more probable a bloody draw between the Sancho II forces and the almoravids.

Also I have begin to search the names and forces of the taifas, the muslim kingdoms that succeed the Caliphate of Cordova after his desintegration and fall during the period of 1010-1031.

In any case I want to first finish to read the TL and after it will be a great pleasure to provide some help for spanish affairs in your TL.

Best regards

Iñaki

Because William grabbed the Holy Land I had a fair number of crusaders, possibly led by Fulq of Anjou, going to aid the reconquista, and achieving it much more rapidly, partially by imposing (via the papacy) a more unified chain of command on the various Iberian princes.
Is this plausible? If not I'll have to retcon it. Then again, this TL will require retconing anyway, so I can do that if need be.

[Iñaki]

Originally posted by AJNolte
Because William grabbed the Holy Land I had a fair number of crusaders, possibly led by Fulq of Anjou, going to aid the reconquista, and achieving it much more rapidly, partially by imposing (via the papacy) a more unified chain of command on the various Iberian princes.
Is this plausible? If not I'll have to retcon it. Then again, this TL will require retconing anyway, so I can do that if need be.

It would be plaussible, because I have not ended of read this TL (I am more or less at the middle of the timeline) I don´t know the details about this crusader aid, but I know that for example the campaign against the almohaded in OTL that ended with the christian victory of Las Navas de Tolosa of 1212 had been considered a crusade by the Pope Inocencius III and this had permitted the arrival of several contingents of european princes and knights (although they didn´t play any paper in the final battle although played interesting help during the campaign previous to the battle).

[AJNolte]

Originally Posted by Iñaki

It would be plaussible, because I have not ended of read this TL (I am more or less at the middle of the timeline) I don´t know the details about this crusader aid, but I know that for example the campaign against the almohaded in OTL that ended with the christian victory of Las Navas de Tolosa of 1212 had been considered a crusade by the Pope Inocencius III and this had permitted the arrival of several contingents of european princes and knights (although they didn´t play any paper in the final battle although played interesting help during the campaign previous to the battle).

Alright: I'll look forward to your comments when you finish.

[Iñaki]

I finish the reading

As I say in a former post it is an interesting timeline with an original POD based in Hastings (but different to the most part of the PODS about a defeat of William, in this case William is victorious but in a far less good position than in OTL -because he arrives first and not Hardrada, William fights the core of the Harold army fresh and prepared- there is also another timeline in which William is victorious but also Hardrada, it could be interesting to put a little link http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/althistx/va.html/). I have also a lot of curiosity by new characters that could appear in the history specially, although I know that it last some in appear, Xadu Khan.

After saying this, the comments about Iberian peninsula situation, and the true is that is a little hard to say this after enjoying the reading of this TL, but probably it would be necessary to rewind and make important changes, because the real situation in the Iberian Peninsula at the moment of the POD and the possible way that it can follow is a lot of different that of explained in the Time Line.

First I will put all the quotes about references to Iberian peninsula in the TL.

Originally posted by AJNolte
"But, My Lord," one of the knights ventured, "the church..."

"Will back William in this. I am well aware. Very well, I shall have to win glory elsewhere."

"Where will we go My Lord?"

"Spain. I have heard that the lords of Aragon and Castile are calling for a crusade as well. Perhaps there I may be my own man."

Originally posted by AJNolte
The Spanish Crusade.
1. From: Spain and France: The Nations that Weren't by Dennis Linoir, Poitou, Republic of Aquitaine.[1]
Introduction:

In the salons of Paris and Poitou, in the coffee houses of Cordoba and Madrid, a new idea is rearing it's head, with nothing less than the reshaping of the world order as it's ultimate goal. This idea is nationism; the belief that all the polities which have for centuries existed independent of one another in the regions of France and Spain ought to be roled into two grand nations of the same name. Tied in with the usual currents of anti-clericism, romanticism and intellectual elitism which permeate such places, the nationist milieu threatens to bring about a region-wide movement for national change. The purpose of this work is to historically analyze the claim, as put forward by these romantic ideologues, that the nations of France and Spain are in any way representative of real, concrete historical fact. The inevitable conclusion of such an examination is that they are not...
From: Chapter 4. Case Study: Andalusia.

Of all the realms of either France or Spain, perhaps none so clearly exemplifies the bankrupt nature of these ideas as Andalusia. Located at the southern tip of Spain, Andalusia was, for three and a half centuries, actually the seat of a Muslim Caliphate, based at that nation's historic capital of Cordoba. This state of affairs would dramatically change in 1075 and 1076, as European lords, dissatisfied with the strictures placed on the First Crusade but still wishing to find for themselves a place in the sun, called on Pope Greggory to call yet another crusade. Though the Danish or Second Crusade drew off the attention of some of these lords, particularly from northern parts of the Holy Roman Empire, the vast majority of European peasants and nobility were uninterested in freezing to death fighting pagan Swedes, when a far riper plumb lay just within their grasp. Thus it was that Greggory called the Third or Spanish Crusade, which would liberate the lands of Spain, and as much as possible Morocco, from the hands of the Muslims. Throughout the Frances, Italy, more southerly Germany and of course the Christian Iberian polities, men flocked to the banner of the Spanish Crusade. . They anticipated a long and difficult fight, for the Caliph was ready for them. Yet they were soon to be bolstered by a veteran of the First Crusade, Fulk of Anjou. His recent crusading experience gave Fulk a prominent position in the third Crusade, which he used to advocate for a high degree of coordination among the various armies and factions of the crusade. Pope Greggory, having seen the effectiveness of this approach in the first and second crusade, supported Fulk, and thus the often quarrelsome princes of Christian Spain were brought under one unified command. Yet this first of many commanders of the Spanish Crusade was no Spaniard, but an Anjovine, chosen not by the will of the Spanish people or princes, but that of the Pope.

Originally posted by AJNolte
3. From: Spain and France, nations that Weren't.

In contrast to the rapid success of William's crusade, the Spanish Crusade would take fifteen long years to complete. Yet as Sweden was pacified and Jerusalem seemed more and more secure, more and more of Europe's crusading fervor was focused on the Caliphate. Had things gone badly in Jerusalem, or had William not centralized the kingdom so firmly under his own personal control, the Spanish campaign would probably never have received the infusion of soldiers and interest which made the conquest of Andalusia possible. Indeed, it is even conceivable (though highly unlikely), that the reconquista would have been left in the hands of the Iberian princes, thereby fostering in Spain a national consciousness like that the nationists are seeking to creat there today. Yet as it was, the conquest of Andalusia--and it's highly fragmented and international character--helped prevent such a consciousness from ever forming. As was the case in France, the languages of the Spains drifted further apart, the political structure and national habbits began to differ more and more, and in time, individual national consciousnesses emerged...

Originally posted by Shadow Knight
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNolte
(Note: I would appreciate suggestions regarding the South of France; I have plans for Aquitaine but not for a little while yet, and no idea what to do with Toulouse).

Well Toulouse and Aragon could very well unite and form a southern Occitanian Kingdom. I suppose it depends on dynastic ties that you implement.

Originally posted by AJNolte
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Knight
Well Toulouse and Aragon could very well unite and form a southern Occitanian Kingdom. I suppose it depends on dynastic ties that you implement.

Kingdom of Occitan: you're on!
And the potential conflicts between Occitan and Aquitaine could be fascinating...

Originally posted by AJNolte
Yet it was Aragon, a Spanish princedom, which intervened on Toulouse's behalf against the Aquitainians, thereby helping to spark a rivalry which exists down to the present day. Once we remove the lenses imposed by the nationist movements in Spain and France from our eyes, Aragon's actions actually make far more sense than any hypothetical French involvement. Aragon and Toulouse shared a common language, Occitan. They shared a common border, and a common interest in checking the aggressive intentions of the Aquitainians who, believing themselves to be the heirs of Charlemagne, were attempting to carve out an empire in southern France and northern Spain. This alliance between Aragon and Toulouse would, of course, result in the Kingdom of Occitania, Aquitaine's traditional rival for influence in the region and a nation which transcended the borders which a concept of French and Spanish nationhood would arbitrarily impose.

Originally posted by AJNolte
Quote:
Originally Posted by Analytical Engine
Apart from Aragon, what states exist in the Iberian Peninsula?


Castile, Leon, Portugal, (probably?) Navarre and later Christian Andalusia.
Any ideas on what to do with them?

Originally posted by Analytical Engine
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNolte
Castile, Leon, Portugal, (probably?) Navarre and later Christian Andalusia.
Any ideas on what to do with them?

They'd probably go to war with each other for a few decades, on and off.

Originally posted by AJNolte
The pain in Spain is mainly in my brain. Subtitle: help!!
Alright, I was doing some background research on the Spanish kingdoms at the time and am somewhat confused.

As far as I can tell, Aragon and Navarre are jointly ruled at the time (1066-1080) by Sancho of Aragon and Navarre. Meanwhile, Castile, Leon and Galicia are ruled by Alphonso of Castile. As far as I can tell, this union, on the part of Navarre and Aragon, lasts OTL until the mid twelfth century (or is it early twelfth century?) and longer in Castile's case.
And the successions, marriages, etc, are a bit crazy. As far as I can tell Alphonso was married like three times and so was Sancho, sometimes to each other's relatives and, possibly in the case of one of them, to Philipa of Toulouse, sister of Raymond of Toulouse. There was also a marriage to Agness of Aquitaine I believe? Can someone help clear up this background?

Originally posted by AJNolte
The Spains were plagued by their incessant warfare, now joined by the still tentative Kingdom of Andalusia, from which Muslims were fleeing at a prodigious rate, mostly to the Moorish emirates.

Sorry all this necessity of made a lot of quotes, but with this we can see what is according the TL the situation in the Iberian Peninsula.

An now come the difficult moment to dismount in great part the premises of the TL about the situation in Iberian Peninsula (but in all the other aspects I see this TL as a very interesting reading, also surely I will commit similar mistakes if I had to make a TL about England):

First of all, as contemplated in the TL, it seems, at least in my opinion like if all the Muslims in Iberian Peninsula was under one rule, it seems like the Caliphate of Cordova has not fallen, in fact in the reality the Caliphate of Cordova ended in 1031 after a long civil war and agony that last from 1010 to 1031, the situation at the moment of the POD: 1066 is that the old lands of the Caliphate of Cordova are divided between more or less a dozen of muslim kingdoms (named popularly taifas), here is a list of these kingdoms by alphabetical order at 1066 (there was all a serie of taifas not included here because they were conquested by another taifas before 1066):

- Taifa of Albarracin, a little taifa centered around the city of Albarracin, in the actual province of Teruel, at the time of the POD is governed by Abd al-Malik (born in 1025).

- Taifa of Almeria, that more or less had the territory of the actual province of Almeria and the southern part of the province of Murcia. It is ruled by Muhammad al-Mutasim (born in 1038).

- Taifa of Alpuente, another little taifa centered in the city of Alpuente, he has territories that today are included in the provinces of Teruel and Castellon. It is ruled by Muhammad II (born in 1036).

- Taifa of Arcos, with the principal cities Jerez and Arcos, it was a little taifa that was conquested by the taifa of Sevilla in 1068.

- Taifa of Badajoz, one of the largest taifas of the Muslim Spain, it had the territories of the central zone of Portugal and part of the north of Portugal , the limit with the christian kingdom of Castilla and Leon was the river Duero, so all the actual Portugal south of Duero with the exception of the southern part of Portugal was territory of the taifa of Badajoz plus the actual spanish provinces of Badajoz and Caceres, it had as principal cities Badajoz and Lisboa. It is ruled by Muhammad al-Muzaffar (born in 1005), in 1068 he will die, letting his kingdom to his first son Yahya (born in 1040).

- Taifa of Carmona, another little taifa in Andalucia centered in the city of Carmona, conquested by the taifa of Sevilla in 1066-67.

- Taifa of Cordoba. It had more or less the territory of the actual province of Cordoba. It is ruled by Abd al-Malik al-Mansur (born in 1035). It will be conquested by the taifa of Sevilla in 1070.

- Taifa of Denia. It had the actual territory more or less of the province of Alicante and the northern part of the province of Murcia, it also dominated all the Balearic Islands (although the Balearic Islands had an autonomous goverment under Abdallah al-Murtada -born in 1020-). I is ruled by Alí Iqbal Ad-Dawla (born in 1009).

- Taifa of Granada. It had the actual territory more or less of the provinces of Granada, Jaen and Malaga. It is ruled by Badis ibn Habbus (born in 1002).

- Taifa of Molina of Aragon. A little taifa in dependence of the taifas of Toledo and Zaragoza. I don´t find the ruler at 1066 but it seems that at the end of the XI century was ruled by Ben Galbon.

- Taifa of Murcia. A relatively little taifa that had the southern part of the actual province of Murcia and a little piece of the province of Alicante (including the cities of Murcia and Orihuela, this last city is in the province of Alicante). It is ruled by Muhammad ibn Ahmed (born in 1020).

- Taifa of Sevilla. Another of the great taifas of the Muslim Iberian Peninsula. It had the territories of the actual spanish provinces of Sevilla, Cadiz and Huelva and all the portuguese region of the Algarve. It is ruled by Al-Mutadid (born in 1016), he will die in 1069 bein succeeded by his son Abul Qasim Muhammad ibn Abbad (born in 1039).

- Taifa of Toledo. The largest taifa in the muslim Iberian Peninsula, it had the territories more or less of the actual provinces of Toledo, Madrid, Guadalajara, Cuenca, Ciudad Real, Valencia and part of Castellon. It is ruled by Abul Hassan Yahya ibn Ismail (born in 1010).

- Taifa of Zaragoza. Another of the great taifas of the muslim Iberian Peninsula, it had the territories of the actual province of Zaragoza, great part of the province of Huesca (with the exception of the zone of Jaca and the mountanous region of the Pirineos that were the christian kingdom of Aragon), the southern part of the province of Lerida, the province of Tarragona and the zone of Tudela in Navarra. It is ruled by Ahmed I al-Muqtadir (born in 1020).

In any case even the large taifas of Zaragoza, Badajoz, Toledo and Sevilla showed relative little military skill in confronting the christian kingdoms (with the possible exception of Zaragoza whose forces were relatively sufficients for a useful defense against the kingdoms of Navarra and Aragon -united both kingdoms in OTL in 1076 under the king of Aragon Sancho I Ramirez- and the Catalan counties, principally the county of Barcelona under Ramon Berenguer I the Old and the county of Urgel under Armengol IV).

After saying what is the situation of the Muslims, now the christian kingdoms and counties in 1066:

first of all the kingdom of Castilla ruled by Sancho II the strong, a warrior of great capacity that surely is the equivalent in the Iberian Peninsula of William of Normandy, a man with great skills in the military, and supported by important nobles as for example his right-han Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar (the famous El Cid Campeador), with capital in Burgos the kingdom has as territories more or less the actual provinces of Santander, Burgos, Valladolid, Avila and Soria.

Second the kingdom of Leon ruled by the brother of Sancho, Alfonso VI, it had as territories the actual provinces of Oviedo, Leon, Salamanca, Palencia and Zamora.

Third the kingdom of Galicia ruled by Garcia brother of Sancho and Alfonso, it had as territories all the actual region of Galicia and the actual Portugal north of Duero river.

These three kingdoms was formed after the death of Fernando I king of Castilla and Leon that distributed his kingdom between his three sons as we have seen in the last three paragraphs.

Soon, but Sancho II and Alfonso formed an alliance that conquered the kingdom of Galicia in 1070-71 and made some kind of joint government over it, but Sancho II showed that he was some kind of William of Normany a lo Iberian Peninsula, when he defeated Alfonso and occupied the kingdom of Leon, so uniting the herency under one rule.

It is 1072, so 6 years after the POD, and now it comes the interesting because according chaos theory and the accumulation of secondary changes that could make change a principal event, it is possible avoid the murder of Sancho in 1072 by Bellido Dolfo, in 1072 Sancho was besieging Zamora, possesion of his sister Urraca and nucleus of leonese nobles in rebellion against him after the defeat of Alfonso, in OTL when it is clear that surely Zamora will fall, some of the nobles inside Zamora, decides to make a desperate measure: try to kill Sancho by a lone assassin, Bellido Dolfos almost miraculously succeeds in killing Sancho after avoiding the castillian soldiers, in TTL but could be Bellido Dolfos fail because the butterlfies caused by the chaos theory, in any case if Sancho survives (a very interesting option) or if Alfonso at the end because the murdering of Sancho if it suceeds like in OTL get the throne of Castilla and Leon, Foulk of Anjou has a severe problem because neither Sancho nor Alfonso needs truly Foulk, so it is very umprobable that Foulk could be the real leader of a crusade in Spain, if such crusade exists it would be under the leading of Castilla and Leon because in fact Castilla and Leon not need help for fight against the mess that is the Muslim Iberian Peninsula divided in a dozen of kingdoms that fight each against the other and so it is highly improbable to press Castilla and Leon to let the leading of a spanish crusade to Foulk of Anjou.

But it could be a way that could give Foulk great benefits, if you are interested an interesting and plaussible chain of events could be the next:

- Sancho II besieging Zamora survives the attempt to kill him by Bellido Dolfos because Bellido not succeeds in not causing alert when he is discovered by castillian soldiers, desperate try to kill the king, but he is stopped by Rodrigo Diaz De Vivar that alerted by the screams of alert of the castillian soldiers intercept Bellido Dolfos and kill him saving the life of his king Sancho II.

-1072-75 sees Sancho strengthening his control over Leon, crushing some rebellious nobles while is planning some campaigns against the taifa of Toledo.

- The words of the success of the William crusade arrives him in 1074-75 and because it could be some kind of interesting european propaganda calls also for external help in his future campaign against the taifas (the Spanish crusade) when Foulk and his men arrives, they soon realizes that they are welcomed but that Sancho II and his right-hand Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar has any intention of letting him command the crusade, Foulk makes some protests but quietly and politely but firmily the king Sancho II (that probably could count with the help of Sancho I Ramirez from 1076 king of Aragon and Navarra, although they have been enemies during the war of the Three Sanchos when Sancho II fight against Sancho I of Aragon and Sancho IV of Navarra, it is very possible that Sancho of Aragon-Navarra could join Sancho of Castilla and Leon because Sancho of Castilla has promised help to fight in the conquest of the taifa of Zaragoza) says clearly that if he wants to collaborate, he will have honours and a part of the loot but in any case the command of the crusade, and if he not agrees in this , well he could get his men and go to another place of Europe, Foulk at the end agrees, he at least will get honours and loot and also although he has no command of crusade at least he don´t need to make an oath of loyalty to Sancho like in the case of William.

- While the preparations of the crusade begin, Foulk after the initial disapointment begins to take an each more respect to Sancho and Rodrigo, the two like him, William, Hereford the Wake and Edgar are two great warriors, in fact Foulk realizes that this Sancho is an authentic great king like the hated William,

Is in these circumstances that the destiny could benefit Foulk, the Leon rebel nobles decide to another time attempt to kill Sancho, this time with a group of assasins, they succeeds in eliminating the guards, the murders smiled: this time Rodrigo and his mean are not near and Sancho seems lost, but then Foulk with some bodyguards arrives by chance to talk with Sancho, when he realizes the situation, he and his men gives the alert and at risk of his own life saves the life of Sancho killing the plotters, when Rodrigo and the other castillian men arrives, a Sancho smiling not doubts in give a lot of thanks to Foulk and his men.

Foulk and his men plays also an important paper in the conquest of Toledo during the spanish crusade, Rodrigo and him ends being friends as the two recognizes the noble warriors that they are.

Foulk could be not gained lands but he has gained the friendship and probably in the future an alliance between Anjou and the most powerful king in the Iberian Peninsula: Sancho II (and because Sancho have alliance with Navarra-Aragon, it is possible to count with the alliance of Navarra-Aragon also), this means that Foulk have now a powerful ally.

After telling this chain of events that could be you can be interested in add to your TL (think: Foulk the adversary of William has now truly authentic powerful allies).

After saying this I continue with the other christian kingdoms:

-Navarra and Aragon: Aragon is a little kingdom that only had the zone of Jaca and the mountanous region of the Pirineos of the actual province of Huesca, he is governed from 1063 by Sancho I Ramirez
Navarra is far more powerful that Aragon and is governed by Sancho IV Garces in 1076 the death of Sancho murdered by his cousins in OTL caused the invasion of Navarra by Sancho of Aragon and his proclamation as king of Navarra (but this is possible also butterlfy if you wants), it had the territories of the actual Basque Country, all Navarra except the zone of Tudela and the province of La Rioja.

- Catalan counties: they are Barcelona, Besalú, Ampuries, Rosellon, Cerdaña, Urgell and Pallars, with Barcelona governed by Ramon Berenguer I and Urgell with Armengol IV the two principal counties.

This is the situation in the Iberian Peninsula, so in fact not exist an unified rule in the muslim Iberian Peninsula (in reality a mess of a dozen of kingdoms) and Castilla and Leon is a powerful state that commanded by Sancho not need truly help to conquest the taifas but even without command of the crusade Foulk could get some interesting and powerful allies in the persons of Sancho and Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar.



There is another thing that also could affect the future events of your TL, in this case is refering to the christian republic of Tunisia, it is about the powerful Empire of the Almoravids, at the moment of the POD: 1066 the Almoravids control all Senegal, the western Sahara, Mauritania and the most part of Morocco (they have conquested Fez in 1063), when the Tunisian republic is established they have the frontier with the powerful Almoravids, and the almoravids, because they are fierce and religious warriors under the command of Yusuf Ibn Tashfin his fouder, Yusuf has a truly efficient general also in the person of Dawud Ibn Aisha, with so great leaders, an enormous military army, and so large empire, well the Banu Hillal compared with the almoravids seems the members of a picnic party, truly now the Tunisian Republic has a very powerful, dangerous and fanatic enemy, in OTL the almoravids go in the help of the taifas of the Iberian Peninsula, but only after a lot of petitions and pleas from the iberian muslims, the almoravids seemed in OTl very reluctant in passing the Strait of Gibraltar to help the taifas (they were more sure in terrains of the Magreb where the geography was more alike to their tastes) in TTL but it is probably sure that the almoravids not go in help of the taifas (or at least not with so large troops like in OTL) because he has a more near and hated objective: the Christian Republic of Tunisia.

I expect that I have could clarify the situation in the Iberian Peninsula,

Keep up the good work, apart of the Iberian peninsula situation, I think that the other parts of your TL are a lot of good.

Also you have very interesting descriptions about the characters of the history, the form in that you make born new characters and giving them personality is very cool, a very good job

Best regards

Iñaki

[AJNolte]

Originally Posted by Iñaki

I finish the reading

As I say in a former post it is an interesting timeline with an original POD based in Hastings (but different to the most part of the PODS about a defeat of William, in this case William is victorious but in a far less good position than in OTL -because he arrives first and not Hardrada, William fights the core of the Harold army fresh and prepared- there is also another timeline in which William is victorious but also Hardrada, it could be interesting to put a little link http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/althistx/va.html/). I have also a lot of curiosity by new characters that could appear in the history specially, although I know that it last some in appear, Xadu Khan.

After saying this, the comments about Iberian peninsula situation, and the true is that is a little hard to say this after enjoying the reading of this TL, but probably it would be necessary to rewind and make important changes, because the real situation in the Iberian Peninsula at the moment of the POD and the possible way that it can follow is a lot of different that of explained in the Time Line.

First I will put all the quotes about references to Iberian peninsula in the TL.





















Sorry all this necessity of made a lot of quotes, but with this we can see what is according the TL the situation in the Iberian Peninsula.

An now come the difficult moment to dismount in great part the premises of the TL about the situation in Iberian Peninsula (but in all the other aspects I see this TL as a very interesting reading, also surely I will commit similar mistakes if I had to make a TL about England):

First of all, as contemplated in the TL, it seems, at least in my opinion like if all the Muslims in Iberian Peninsula was under one rule, it seems like the Caliphate of Cordova has not fallen, in fact in the reality the Caliphate of Cordova ended in 1031 after a long civil war and agony that last from 1010 to 1031, the situation at the moment of the POD: 1066 is that the old lands of the Caliphate of Cordova are divided between more or less a dozen of muslim kingdoms (named popularly taifas), here is a list of these kingdoms by alphabetical order at 1066 (there was all a serie of taifas not included here because they were conquested by another taifas before 1066):

- Taifa of Albarracin, a little taifa centered around the city of Albarracin, in the actual province of Teruel, at the time of the POD is governed by Abd al-Malik (born in 1025).

- Taifa of Almeria, that more or less had the territory of the actual province of Almeria and the southern part of the province of Murcia. It is ruled by Muhammad al-Mutasim (born in 1038).

- Taifa of Alpuente, another little taifa centered in the city of Alpuente, he has territories that today are included in the provinces of Teruel and Castellon. It is ruled by Muhammad II (born in 1036).

- Taifa of Arcos, with the principal cities Jerez and Arcos, it was a little taifa that was conquested by the taifa of Sevilla in 1068.

- Taifa of Badajoz, one of the largest taifas of the Muslim Spain, it had the territories of the central zone of Portugal and part of the north of Portugal , the limit with the christian kingdom of Castilla and Leon was the river Duero, so all the actual Portugal south of Duero with the exception of the southern part of Portugal was territory of the taifa of Badajoz plus the actual spanish provinces of Badajoz and Caceres, it had as principal cities Badajoz and Lisboa. It is ruled by Muhammad al-Muzaffar (born in 1005), in 1068 he will die, letting his kingdom to his first son Yahya (born in 1040).

- Taifa of Carmona, another little taifa in Andalucia centered in the city of Carmona, conquested by the taifa of Sevilla in 1066-67.

- Taifa of Cordoba. It had more or less the territory of the actual province of Cordoba. It is ruled by Abd al-Malik al-Mansur (born in 1035). It will be conquested by the taifa of Sevilla in 1070.

- Taifa of Denia. It had the actual territory more or less of the province of Alicante and the northern part of the province of Murcia, it also dominated all the Balearic Islands (although the Balearic Islands had an autonomous goverment under Abdallah al-Murtada -born in 1020-). I is ruled by Alí Iqbal Ad-Dawla (born in 1009).

- Taifa of Granada. It had the actual territory more or less of the provinces of Granada, Jaen and Malaga. It is ruled by Badis ibn Habbus (born in 1002).

- Taifa of Molina of Aragon. A little taifa in dependence of the taifas of Toledo and Zaragoza. I don´t find the ruler at 1066 but it seems that at the end of the XI century was ruled by Ben Galbon.

- Taifa of Murcia. A relatively little taifa that had the southern part of the actual province of Murcia and a little piece of the province of Alicante (including the cities of Murcia and Orihuela, this last city is in the province of Alicante). It is ruled by Muhammad ibn Ahmed (born in 1020).

- Taifa of Sevilla. Another of the great taifas of the Muslim Iberian Peninsula. It had the territories of the actual spanish provinces of Sevilla, Cadiz and Huelva and all the portuguese region of the Algarve. It is ruled by Al-Mutadid (born in 1016), he will die in 1069 bein succeeded by his son Abul Qasim Muhammad ibn Abbad (born in 1039).

- Taifa of Toledo. The largest taifa in the muslim Iberian Peninsula, it had the territories more or less of the actual provinces of Toledo, Madrid, Guadalajara, Cuenca, Ciudad Real, Valencia and part of Castellon. It is ruled by Abul Hassan Yahya ibn Ismail (born in 1010).

- Taifa of Zaragoza. Another of the great taifas of the muslim Iberian Peninsula, it had the territories of the actual province of Zaragoza, great part of the province of Huesca (with the exception of the zone of Jaca and the mountanous region of the Pirineos that were the christian kingdom of Aragon), the southern part of the province of Lerida, the province of Tarragona and the zone of Tudela in Navarra. It is ruled by Ahmed I al-Muqtadir (born in 1020).

In any case even the large taifas of Zaragoza, Badajoz, Toledo and Sevilla showed relative little military skill in confronting the christian kingdoms (with the possible exception of Zaragoza whose forces were relatively sufficients for a useful defense against the kingdoms of Navarra and Aragon -united both kingdoms in OTL in 1076 under the king of Aragon Sancho I Ramirez- and the Catalan counties, principally the county of Barcelona under Ramon Berenguer I the Old and the county of Urgel under Armengol IV).

After saying what is the situation of the Muslims, now the christian kingdoms and counties in 1066:

first of all the kingdom of Castilla ruled by Sancho II the strong, a warrior of great capacity that surely is the equivalent in the Iberian Peninsula of William of Normandy, a man with great skills in the military, and supported by important nobles as for example his right-han Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar (the famous El Cid Campeador), with capital in Burgos the kingdom has as territories more or less the actual provinces of Santander, Burgos, Valladolid, Avila and Soria.

Second the kingdom of Leon ruled by the brother of Sancho, Alfonso VI, it had as territories the actual provinces of Oviedo, Leon, Salamanca, Palencia and Zamora.

Third the kingdom of Galicia ruled by Garcia brother of Sancho and Alfonso, it had as territories all the actual region of Galicia and the actual Portugal north of Duero river.

These three kingdoms was formed after the death of Fernando I king of Castilla and Leon that distributed his kingdom between his three sons as we have seen in the last three paragraphs.

Soon, but Sancho II and Alfonso formed an alliance that conquered the kingdom of Galicia in 1070-71 and made some kind of joint government over it, but Sancho II showed that he was some kind of William of Normany a lo Iberian Peninsula, when he defeated Alfonso and occupied the kingdom of Leon, so uniting the herency under one rule.

It is 1072, so 6 years after the POD, and now it comes the interesting because according chaos theory and the accumulation of secondary changes that could make change a principal event, it is possible avoid the murder of Sancho in 1072 by Bellido Dolfo, in 1072 Sancho was besieging Zamora, possesion of his sister Urraca and nucleus of leonese nobles in rebellion against him after the defeat of Alfonso, in OTL when it is clear that surely Zamora will fall, some of the nobles inside Zamora, decides to make a desperate measure: try to kill Sancho by a lone assassin, Bellido Dolfos almost miraculously succeeds in killing Sancho after avoiding the castillian soldiers, in TTL but could be Bellido Dolfos fail because the butterlfies caused by the chaos theory, in any case if Sancho survives (a very interesting option) or if Alfonso at the end because the murdering of Sancho if it suceeds like in OTL get the throne of Castilla and Leon, Foulk of Anjou has a severe problem because neither Sancho nor Alfonso needs truly Foulk, so it is very umprobable that Foulk could be the real leader of a crusade in Spain, if such crusade exists it would be under the leading of Castilla and Leon because in fact Castilla and Leon not need help for fight against the mess that is the Muslim Iberian Peninsula divided in a dozen of kingdoms that fight each against the other and so it is highly improbable to press Castilla and Leon to let the leading of a spanish crusade to Foulk of Anjou.

But it could be a way that could give Foulk great benefits, if you are interested an interesting and plaussible chain of events could be the next:

- Sancho II besieging Zamora survives the attempt to kill him by Bellido Dolfos because Bellido not succeeds in not causing alert when he is discovered by castillian soldiers, desperate try to kill the king, but he is stopped by Rodrigo Diaz De Vivar that alerted by the screams of alert of the castillian soldiers intercept Bellido Dolfos and kill him saving the life of his king Sancho II.

-1072-75 sees Sancho strengthening his control over Leon, crushing some rebellious nobles while is planning some campaigns against the taifa of Toledo.

- The words of the success of the William crusade arrives him in 1074-75 and because it could be some kind of interesting european propaganda calls also for external help in his future campaign against the taifas (the Spanish crusade) when Foulk and his men arrives, they soon realizes that they are welcomed but that Sancho II and his right-hand Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar has any intention of letting him command the crusade, Foulk makes some protests but quietly and politely but firmily the king Sancho II (that probably could count with the help of Sancho I Ramirez from 1076 king of Aragon and Navarra, although they have been enemies during the war of the Three Sanchos when Sancho II fight against Sancho I of Aragon and Sancho IV of Navarra, it is very possible that Sancho of Aragon-Navarra could join Sancho of Castilla and Leon because Sancho of Castilla has promised help to fight in the conquest of the taifa of Zaragoza) says clearly that if he wants to collaborate, he will have honours and a part of the loot but in any case the command of the crusade, and if he not agrees in this , well he could get his men and go to another place of Europe, Foulk at the end agrees, he at least will get honours and loot and also although he has no command of crusade at least he don´t need to make an oath of loyalty to Sancho like in the case of William.

- While the preparations of the crusade begin, Foulk after the initial disapointment begins to take an each more respect to Sancho and Rodrigo, the two like him, William, Hereford the Wake and Edgar are two great warriors, in fact Foulk realizes that this Sancho is an authentic great king like the hated William,

Is in these circumstances that the destiny could benefit Foulk, the Leon rebel nobles decide to another time attempt to kill Sancho, this time with a group of assasins, they succeeds in eliminating the guards, the murders smiled: this time Rodrigo and his mean are not near and Sancho seems lost, but then Foulk with some bodyguards arrives by chance to talk with Sancho, when he realizes the situation, he and his men gives the alert and at risk of his own life saves the life of Sancho killing the plotters, when Rodrigo and the other castillian men arrives, a Sancho smiling not doubts in give a lot of thanks to Foulk and his men.

Foulk and his men plays also an important paper in the conquest of Toledo during the spanish crusade, Rodrigo and him ends being friends as the two recognizes the noble warriors that they are.

Foulk could be not gained lands but he has gained the friendship and probably in the future an alliance between Anjou and the most powerful king in the Iberian Peninsula: Sancho II (and because Sancho have alliance with Navarra-Aragon, it is possible to count with the alliance of Navarra-Aragon also), this means that Foulk have now a powerful ally.

After telling this chain of events that could be you can be interested in add to your TL (think: Foulk the adversary of William has now truly authentic powerful allies).

After saying this I continue with the other christian kingdoms:

-Navarra and Aragon: Aragon is a little kingdom that only had the zone of Jaca and the mountanous region of the Pirineos of the actual province of Huesca, he is governed from 1063 by Sancho I Ramirez
Navarra is far more powerful that Aragon and is governed by Sancho IV Garces in 1076 the death of Sancho murdered by his cousins in OTL caused the invasion of Navarra by Sancho of Aragon and his proclamation as king of Navarra (but this is possible also butterlfy if you wants), it had the territories of the actual Basque Country, all Navarra except the zone of Tudela and the province of La Rioja.

- Catalan counties: they are Barcelona, Besalú, Ampuries, Rosellon, Cerdaña, Urgell and Pallars, with Barcelona governed by Ramon Berenguer I and Urgell with Armengol IV the two principal counties.

This is the situation in the Iberian Peninsula, so in fact not exist an unified rule in the muslim Iberian Peninsula (in reality a mess of a dozen of kingdoms) and Castilla and Leon is a powerful state that commanded by Sancho not need truly help to conquest the taifas but even without command of the crusade Foulk could get some interesting and powerful allies in the persons of Sancho and Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar.



There is another thing that also could affect the future events of your TL, in this case is refering to the christian republic of Tunisia, it is about the powerful Empire of the Almoravids, at the moment of the POD: 1066 the Almoravids control all Senegal, the western Sahara, Mauritania and the most part of Morocco (they have conquested Fez in 1063), when the Tunisian republic is established they have the frontier with the powerful Almoravids, and the almoravids, because they are fierce and religious warriors under the command of Yusuf Ibn Tashfin his fouder, Yusuf has a truly efficient general also in the person of Dawud Ibn Aisha, with so great leaders, an enormous military army, and so large empire, well the Banu Hillal compared with the almoravids seems the members of a picnic party, truly now the Tunisian Republic has a very powerful, dangerous and fanatic enemy, in OTL the almoravids go in the help of the taifas of the Iberian Peninsula, but only after a lot of petitions and pleas from the iberian muslims, the almoravids seemed in OTl very reluctant in passing the Strait of Gibraltar to help the taifas (they were more sure in terrains of the Magreb where the geography was more alike to their tastes) in TTL but it is probably sure that the almoravids not go in help of the taifas (or at least not with so large troops like in OTL) because he has a more near and hated objective: the Christian Republic of Tunisia.

I expect that I have could clarify the situation in the Iberian Peninsula,

Keep up the good work, apart of the Iberian peninsula situation, I think that the other parts of your TL are a lot of good.

Also you have very interesting descriptions about the characters of the history, the form in that you make born new characters and giving them personality is very cool, a very good job

Best regards

Iñaki

Wow, thanks, that's a lot of helpful information.

So, let's assume that Sancho of Castille leads the crusade, supported by Sancho of Navarre and Fulq of Anjou.
1. Is it reasonable that the disunited Muslim lands would fall to such a crusade?
2. What would a likely division of Muslim territories be after the fact? Would Castille get it all, or would it be divided between Castille and Navarre? Would Aragon be absorbed into Navarre?
3. Re: Al-Moravids: that will be interesting: Bohimond Guiscard will be leading the Tunisians against them I think. Could be a Richard and Saladin kind of thing; big one for the romances. How centralized and effective were the Al-Moravids? What kind of weapons/military did they use?

Anyway, I appreciate your help with this. I've recognized from the beginning that Iberia was the TL's achiles heal so to speak, and this will help a lot.

[stevep]

Inaki

Just a small question. One of the parts of AJ's establishment of the Tunisian republic was that a lot of the local population were glad to receive relief from the attacks of the Banu Hillal, which I and others have read caused a lot of disruption and fatal damage to the ancient irrigation system of the area. How did they interact with the Almoravids? Did the two clash or what? Would have thought the Almoravids would have been determined to defend their territory and resources or were the two actually too far apart? Know very little about the history of the area in this period so would be interested to know more please.

Steve

[AJNolte]

Agreed. OTL the Banu Hilal conquered everything not long after the Guiscards arrived. How would the Berber states have reacted to the Al-Moravids?

I remember hearing that the Al-Moravids were a pretty nasty piece of work, so their reaction might indeed be hostile.

Thanks again, Inaki, for help in areas I ought to know more about. <g>

Originally Posted by stevep

Inaki

Just a small question. One of the parts of AJ's establishment of the Tunisian republic was that a lot of the local population were glad to receive relief from the attacks of the Banu Hillal, which I and others have read caused a lot of disruption and fatal damage to the ancient irrigation system of the area. How did they interact with the Almoravids? Did the two clash or what? Would have thought the Almoravids would have been determined to defend their territory and resources or were the two actually too far apart? Know very little about the history of the area in this period so would be interested to know more please.

Steve

[Iñaki]

Originally posted by AJNolte
Wow, thanks, that's a lot of helpful information.

So, let's assume that Sancho of Castille leads the crusade, supported by Sancho of Navarre and Fulq of Anjou.
1. Is it reasonable that the disunited Muslim lands would fall to such a crusade?
2. What would a likely division of Muslim territories be after the fact? Would Castille get it all, or would it be divided between Castille and Navarre? Would Aragon be absorbed into Navarre?
3. Re: Al-Moravids: that will be interesting: Bohimond Guiscard will be leading the Tunisians against them I think. Could be a Richard and Saladin kind of thing; big one for the romances. How centralized and effective were the Al-Moravids? What kind of weapons/military did they use?

Anyway, I appreciate your help with this. I've recognized from the beginning that Iberia was the TL's achiles heal so to speak, and this will help a lot.

It is a pleasure help you, it is an interesting and great TL

1. I think that is very probable, in OTL the taifas needed the external help of the almoravids to stop the castillian offensive against them, first the almoravids and after the almohades surely delayed between 125-200 years the final outcome of the Reconquista, we also have to have on account the fact that butterflying the murdering of Sancho II we have a more capable and military skilled leader that Alfonso VI of OTL, his brother Sancho II.

Saying this we could expect like in OTL a Spanish Crusade or Reconquista made in stages but this stages could be acomplished in great part in the life of Sancho II, also we could expect some delay before the beginning of the campaign if like in OTL Sancho Garcia IV of Navarra (or kingdom of Pamplona, as it seems that in that times Navarra was named) is murdered by his brothers in 1076, if they suceed in kill Sancho Garcia IV or not, and in this case could cause a civil war could be in fact of little difference, in OTL the situation of instability caused by the death of Sancho made possible a joint invasion of Navarra by aragonese and castillians, at the end Sancho Ramirez I of Aragon got the throne of Navarra while the castillians annexed the region of La Rioja, looking at the familiar situation of Sancho Garcia IV of Navarra is very probable that something similar happens in TTL, if Sancho Garcia IV survives the attempt of killing, this could ignite a civil war an the request of help to Aragon and Castilla and Leon ending with Sancho Garcia IV remaining at power in Navarra but at the cost of giving La Rioja to Sancho and some pyrenaic towns to Aragon and the promise to help Aragon in the reconquest of Huesca, if he not survives surely we have the same outcome that in OTL: Sancho Ramirez I taking Navarra and Sancho II taking La Rioja.

So this could mean that the final begin of the Spanish Crusade could be 1077-1078.

Respect to the stages of Reconquista it is clear that it will cost some years, surely more that the 15 years that you say, although disunited, the taifas are a lot and although the majority could not defend alone,we could expect some desperate pacts of alliance between large taifas that although not would serve to defeat the christian armies could delay the Reconquista, I think that a more probable period would be 25-35 years (and could be with some last muslim redoubt at last centered in the taifa of Granada and Almeria and the Balearic Islands that with some help of the army and navy of the almoravids could need another century of combats to finally fall naturally only if for then another events could change this bad luck for the iberian muslims), Foulk surely could participate in the early stages of reconquista that would be: 1. The conquest of the taifa of Toledo 2. The conquest of the Taifa of Zaragoza (this last in combination with the armies of the Navarra, Aragon and the catalan counties, probably Zaragoza could be given to Navarra or to Aragon while cities like Lerida would fall in the hands of Urgell, and Tarragona and Tortosa in the hands of Barcelona).

So as I say it is very probable, although it would last more or less 25-35 years conquer all the Peninsula.

2. Being Castilla and Leon with a stronger king that in OTL and staying the almoravids concentrated in fighting the Tunisia Republic, it is very probable that Castilla gets more than in OTL it got, but I think that the others christian kingdoms will get his part of the cake.

Aragon could be a fascinating what if also if Sancho Garcia IV of Navarra is murdered the probabilities of an union between Navarra and Aragon under Sancho Rmirez I are great , if Sancho Garcia IV survives Aragon could be limited to reconquest Huesca and Barbastro an little more, in this circumstances we could have all a series of probabilities, a union or annexion with Navarra in the future, with the catalan counties, and not necessarily with Barcelona like in OTL, Urgel could be also a good candidate, in this case an union between Aragon and Urgel could give to the birth an interesting although relatively little kingdom of Aragon-Urgel (and surely the first objective of this kingdom could be the annexion of the county of Pallars that at this time is divided between two rival counties: Pallars Jussa and Pallars Sobira).

I think that Navarra could get Tudela and Zaragoza,, while Urgel could get Lerida and Balaguer, Barcelona could get Tarragona and Tortosa while Aragon get Huesca; the taifas of Albarracin, Alpuente and Valencia could be the more disputed: it will be Navarra, Castilla or even Barcelona who get them, who knows?, all the the other taifas surely would fall in the hands of Castilla and Leon.

3. It would be no doubt a very interesting fighting, and a very hard test for the armies of Tunisia, the level of centralization and organization of the almoravids was high (I dont have too much details, but by logic to command in cities as Fez,Tangert and others you will need some kind of deep organization, although surely they are also used the local elites once conquested and that they follow the precepts of the Coran) and the same time they are the sufficient idealistic to not fall too much in the bureacracy, in certain sense the almoravids were a return to the time of the first caliphs of the Islam , they were also a deeply religious state, following the precepts and islamic laws (and this could have his negative points as they are very strict in the prohibition of all the things prohibited in the Coran, but also in the positive sense they demanded the opinion of the citizens of the cities and other communities because this was said in the Coran).

I have also little details about his military organization, according to wikipedia :"Their main force was infantry, armed with javelins in the front ranks and pikes behind, which formed into a phalanx; and was supported by camelmen and horsemen on the flanks."

In another book that I have it is noted that his camelmen were very fierce causing great panic between the cavalry of the christian kingdoms the camelmen were armed with scimitars and shields of antelope skin (the author refers to the fact that in the Magrib is common to say they are like camel and horse more to say like cat and dog because this strange enmity between horses and camels).

I expect that this could help you

[Iñaki]

Originally posted by stevep
Inaki

Just a small question. One of the parts of AJ's establishment of the Tunisian republic was that a lot of the local population were glad to receive relief from the attacks of the Banu Hillal, which I and others have read caused a lot of disruption and fatal damage to the ancient irrigation system of the area. How did they interact with the Almoravids? Did the two clash or what? Would have thought the Almoravids would have been determined to defend their territory and resources or were the two actually too far apart? Know very little about the history of the area in this period so would be interested to know more please.

Steve

It was a pity, had been interesting what reactions almoravids and banu Hillal had had one with the other, but alas, they never clash between them, while the Banu Hillal if I remember well were based in the regions of Ifrigquiya and the Tripolitania arriving to attack even the Hammadi emirate centered in Hammad, the almoravids was centered in conquest the actual Morocco and the eastern part of Argelia, in OTL, they had their frontier with the Hammamid Emirate, so in OTL there was not interaction between Banu Hilal and almoravids, could be if the almoravids at the end had decided not to go in the help of the taifas they had continued his expansion in direction of the Hammadi emirate and then they probably had found the Banu Hilal, but this not happen in OTL.

[Iñaki]

Originally posted by AJNolte
Agreed. OTL the Banu Hilal conquered everything not long after the Guiscards arrived. How would the Berber states have reacted to the Al-Moravids?

I remember hearing that the Al-Moravids were a pretty nasty piece of work, so their reaction might indeed be hostile.

I suppose that yes, there was strong resistance centered principally in the coast, while from taking Siyilmasa in southern Argelia to taking Fez there was a period of 8 years from 1055 to 1063, and after a period of consolidation with the foundation of the capital of Marrakus in 1070 (city of Marrakech) the next stage of conquest lasted from 1071 until 1084- second conquest of Ceuta), it seems that in the interior towns and villages the religiosity of the almoravids and his organization provided strong support, it seems but that in the cities of the coast of Morocco and Argelia there was far more resistance, Ceuta for example rebelled agains the almoravids after being conquested an it was not definitively conquested until 1084.

[AJNolte]

Originally Posted by Iñaki

It is a pleasure help you, it is an interesting and great TL

1. I think that is very probable, in OTL the taifas needed the external help of the almoravids to stop the castillian offensive against them, first the almoravids and after the almohades surely delayed between 125-200 years the final outcome of the Reconquista, we also have to have on account the fact that butterflying the murdering of Sancho II we have a more capable and military skilled leader that Alfonso VI of OTL, his brother Sancho II.

Saying this we could expect like in OTL a Spanish Crusade or Reconquista made in stages but this stages could be acomplished in great part in the life of Sancho II, also we could expect some delay before the beginning of the campaign if like in OTL Sancho Garcia IV of Navarra (or kingdom of Pamplona, as it seems that in that times Navarra was named) is murdered by his brothers in 1076, if they suceed in kill Sancho Garcia IV or not, and in this case could cause a civil war could be in fact of little difference, in OTL the situation of instability caused by the death of Sancho made possible a joint invasion of Navarra by aragonese and castillians, at the end Sancho Ramirez I of Aragon got the throne of Navarra while the castillians annexed the region of La Rioja, looking at the familiar situation of Sancho Garcia IV of Navarra is very probable that something similar happens in TTL, if Sancho Garcia IV survives the attempt of killing, this could ignite a civil war an the request of help to Aragon and Castilla and Leon ending with Sancho Garcia IV remaining at power in Navarra but at the cost of giving La Rioja to Sancho and some pyrenaic towns to Aragon and the promise to help Aragon in the reconquest of Huesca, if he not survives surely we have the same outcome that in OTL: Sancho Ramirez I taking Navarra and Sancho II taking La Rioja.

So this could mean that the final begin of the Spanish Crusade could be 1077-1078.

Respect to the stages of Reconquista it is clear that it will cost some years, surely more that the 15 years that you say, although disunited, the taifas are a lot and although the majority could not defend alone,we could expect some desperate pacts of alliance between large taifas that although not would serve to defeat the christian armies could delay the Reconquista, I think that a more probable period would be 25-35 years (and could be with some last muslim redoubt at last centered in the taifa of Granada and Almeria and the Balearic Islands that with some help of the army and navy of the almoravids could need another century of combats to finally fall naturally only if for then another events could change this bad luck for the iberian muslims), Foulk surely could participate in the early stages of reconquista that would be: 1. The conquest of the taifa of Toledo 2. The conquest of the Taifa of Zaragoza (this last in combination with the armies of the Navarra, Aragon and the catalan counties, probably Zaragoza could be given to Navarra or to Aragon while cities like Lerida would fall in the hands of Urgell, and Tarragona and Tortosa in the hands of Barcelona).

So as I say it is very probable, although it would last more or less 25-35 years conquer all the Peninsula.

2. Being Castilla and Leon with a stronger king that in OTL and staying the almoravids concentrated in fighting the Tunisia Republic, it is very probable that Castilla gets more than in OTL it got, but I think that the others christian kingdoms will get his part of the cake.

Aragon could be a fascinating what if also if Sancho Garcia IV of Navarra is murdered the probabilities of an union between Navarra and Aragon under Sancho Rmirez I are great , if Sancho Garcia IV survives Aragon could be limited to reconquest Huesca and Barbastro an little more, in this circumstances we could have all a series of probabilities, a union or annexion with Navarra in the future, with the catalan counties, and not necessarily with Barcelona like in OTL, Urgel could be also a good candidate, in this case an union between Aragon and Urgel could give to the birth an interesting although relatively little kingdom of Aragon-Urgel (and surely the first objective of this kingdom could be the annexion of the county of Pallars that at this time is divided between two rival counties: Pallars Jussa and Pallars Sobira).

I think that Navarra could get Tudela and Zaragoza,, while Urgel could get Lerida and Balaguer, Barcelona could get Tarragona and Tortosa while Aragon get Huesca; the taifas of Albarracin, Alpuente and Valencia could be the more disputed: it will be Navarra, Castilla or even Barcelona who get them, who knows?, all the the other taifas surely would fall in the hands of Castilla and Leon.

3. It would be no doubt a very interesting fighting, and a very hard test for the armies of Tunisia, the level of centralization and organization of the almoravids was high (I dont have too much details, but by logic to command in cities as Fez,Tangert and others you will need some kind of deep organization, although surely they are also used the local elites once conquested and that they follow the precepts of the Coran) and the same time they are the sufficient idealistic to not fall too much in the bureacracy, in certain sense the almoravids were a return to the time of the first caliphs of the Islam , they were also a deeply religious state, following the precepts and islamic laws (and this could have his negative points as they are very strict in the prohibition of all the things prohibited in the Coran, but also in the positive sense they demanded the opinion of the citizens of the cities and other communities because this was said in the Coran).

I have also little details about his military organization, according to wikipedia :"Their main force was infantry, armed with javelins in the front ranks and pikes behind, which formed into a phalanx; and was supported by camelmen and horsemen on the flanks."

In another book that I have it is noted that his camelmen were very fierce causing great panic between the cavalry of the christian kingdoms the camelmen were armed with scimitars and shields of antelope skin (the author refers to the fact that in the Magrib is common to say they are like camel and horse more to say like cat and dog because this strange enmity between horses and camels).

I expect that this could help you

The Al-Moravids will be very evenly matched against the Tunisians: very similar armies. The Tunisians have heavier horse and longbowmen because of the English. A long border war: this will be interesting. Given their stout Islamic identity, it'll be interesting to see how the Al-Moravids respond to the military collapse of Islam elsewhere.

Your Spanish situation sounds interesting. So a largely Basque kingdom of Pamplona, a Catelan kingdom of Aragon (perhaps absorbing the other Catelan counties) and the rest in the Castilian Empire? Of course, after Sancho's death this could fragment.

Sounds plausible.

Thanks again.

[AJNolte]

Originally Posted by Iñaki

I suppose that yes, there was strong resistance centered principally in the coast, while from taking Siyilmasa in southern Argelia to taking Fez there was a period of 8 years from 1055 to 1063, and after a period of consolidation with the foundation of the capital of Marrakus in 1070 (city of Marrakech) the next stage of conquest lasted from 1071 until 1084- second conquest of Ceuta), it seems that in the interior towns and villages the religiosity of the almoravids and his organization provided strong support, it seems but that in the cities of the coast of Morocco and Argelia there was far more resistance, Ceuta for example rebelled agains the almoravids after being conquested an it was not definitively conquested until 1084.

Tunisians have a pretty decent navy so they could fight with the Al-Moravids over some of these coastal cities.

It'll be interesting.

[stevep]

Originally Posted by Iñaki

It was a pity, had been interesting what reactions almoravids and banu Hillal had had one with the other, but alas, they never clash between them, while the Banu Hillal if I remember well were based in the regions of Ifrigquiya and the Tripolitania arriving to attack even the Hammadi emirate centered in Hammad, the almoravids was centered in conquest the actual Morocco and the eastern part of Argelia, in OTL, they had their frontier with the Hammamid Emirate, so in OTL there was not interaction between Banu Hilal and almoravids, could be if the almoravids at the end had decided not to go in the help of the taifas they had continued his expansion in direction of the Hammadi emirate and then they probably had found the Banu Hilal, but this not happen in OTL.

Inaki

Thanks. Slightly mis-understood your initial comment. From you saying that the Almoravids would clash with the republic, which occupies the area attacked by the Banu Hilal I was thinking the two groups met and possibly clashed historically. However possibly you mean the republic reaches further westward, thereby disputing borders with the Almoravids? Or that the religious differences and strong feelings in both cases would have meant the two would inevitably clash. Hope I'm making myself clear?

However from what you say the two groups didn't clash historically. Sounds from the description of the Almoravids they would have had a clear edge in any pitched battle but could have had problems defeating Banu Hilal raids.

Steve

[Iñaki]

Originally posted by stevep
Inaki

Thanks. Slightly mis-understood your initial comment. From you saying that the Almoravids would clash with the republic, which occupies the area attacked by the Banu Hilal I was thinking the two groups met and possibly clashed historically. However possibly you mean the republic reaches further westward, thereby disputing borders with the Almoravids? Or that the religious differences and strong feelings in both cases would have meant the two would inevitably clash. Hope I'm making myself clear?

However from what you say the two groups didn't clash historically. Sounds from the description of the Almoravids they would have had a clear edge in any pitched battle but could have had problems defeating Banu Hilal raids.

Steve

You are welcome Steve

If I remember correctly in the post about the Tunisian republic AJNolte say that it expanded to the actual Algeria (so more or less where in OTL was the Hammamid Emirate that was the neighbour of the almoravids) so with this expansion the Tunisian Republic have as neighbour the almoravids an naturally looking at the constitution made by the christians at the republic of Tunis and his treatment about the muslims plus the religiosity and yihadism of the almoravids, well it is clear that we have two neighbours with great causes to originate a fight

[AJNolte]

Originally Posted by Iñaki

You are welcome Steve

If I remember correctly in the post about the Tunisian republic AJNolte say that it expanded to the actual Algeria (so more or less where in OTL was the Hammamid Emirate that was the neighbour of the almoravids) so with this expansion the Tunisian Republic have as neighbour the almoravids an naturally looking at the constitution made by the christians at the republic of Tunis and his treatment about the muslims plus the religiosity and yihadism of the almoravids, well it is clear that we have two neighbours with great causes to originate a fight

Yes, Tunisia isn't exactly tolerant toward it's Muslim subjects, though the peonage system will soon be mitigated somewhat.

Yes, I'm expecting a long period of hostility here.

I'll try to do a retcon post on Iberia this weekend.

[AJNolte]

I'm going to try to retcon the Iberian events in this post, in the hopes of moving this TL forward in the very near future.

From: Spain and France: Nations that weren't.

The impact of William's crusade on the Spanish was profound. With the rise of the loyalty oath to the Norman king in Jerusalem, a large number of crusaders found themselves disillusioned and desperately seeking for the glory of the crusade. Their eyes fell on Spain, where Prince Shancho of Castile (who had consolidated his power after a failed assassination attempt in 1072) was diligently pushing the Muslims back. Fulq of Anjou was one of the first to approach Sancho, seeking to gain land for himself and his heirs in conquered Andalusia without an oath of loyalty in exchange for aid in ending the Muslim threat once and for all. Immediately grasping the opportunity that the crusaders could provide, Sancho agreed, and the two men began pushing for a crusade to be proclaimed. In 1075, they got their wish, and men from the Frances began to flood into Spain. Commanded by the so-called "triumvirate", composed of Sancho of Castile, Sancho of Pamplona and Fulq of Anjou, the crusaders began determinedly conquering the remnants of the Caliphate of Corduba. It was a process which would take nearly three decades, and would see a great influx of Frenchman into the Spains. It would be the backdrop for the rise of Raymond of Toulouse, and his marriage to Maria of Navarre (daughter of Sancho of Navarre and heir to the kingdom of Pamplona), and therise of that renound war leader to a position of preeminence in northern Spain and southern France. It was also this background which saw strong links established between Anjou and Grinada, when Fulq, above the protests of both Sanchos, successfully schemed to have himself crowned king of the Crusader Kingdom of grinada, sparking the Great Spanish War which eventually dragged in an empire, and forever changed the face of the Iberian peninsula.

[Iñaki]

Interesting segment

A Crusader kingdom of Granada, I have some initial doubts about this but after thinking some, it could be, Fulq could made the paper that El Cid made in Valencia when he obtained the help of not only his own army (in this case the french crusader army) also from the muslim inhabitants of Valencia against the menace of the almoravids, we could see some kind of pact between Fulq and the last muslim armies in Granada to become all being part of the Kingdom of Granada under Fulq.

[Analytical Engine]

Bump! Any chance of some more?