The Greater Norman Empire and its successor states.

[AJNolte]

Originally Posted by Analytical Engine

Just to let you know, the Counties of Blois and Champagne were in personal-union at this time.

Excellent.
The HRE grabbed Champagne back during the War of French Partition ITTL. So now I know what war King Stephen of France will be fighting; one to recover Champagne.

Thanks,

A. J.

[Analytical Engine]

Originally Posted by AJNolte

Excellent.
The HRE grabbed Champagne back during the War of French Partition ITTL. So now I know what war King Stephen of France will be fighting; one to recover Champagne.

Thanks,

A. J.

No problem.

[AJNolte]

This is kind of a filler update post. Sorry for the spiratic nature of updates. This should (hopefully) update things on the state of the various kids mentioned in passing.

William's children.

Before the POD: William of Normandy and Matilda of Flanders had four children: Robert Curthose of Normandy, William Ruphus, Richard and Adela. Robert has subsequently married into the Breton house and, after some internal strife, been proclaimed king of Britany. It is expected that, on William's death, he will be proclaimed Emperor. William Ruphus has not married, and rumors about his sexuality are beginning to spread. More damaging however is the perception that he is high-handed and cares little for the realm. William Ruphus has been boasting about his plans to "civilize" England when he receives it from William on his father's death, and seems not to hear his father when he reminds him that the Witen, not William, will pick England's next king. Richard, called Richard the Moor by some of his political enemies, has proven a capable and energetic ruler in the Kingdom of Jerusalem. There is a substantial faction, primarily among the lords who have prospered from the crusades, who wish him to become Emperor on William's death, but Richard shows little interest in the title.

In addition, William and Matilda have had two children since the POD: Edward (born 1070) and Marie (born 1072). Edward has already been betrothed to Irene Doukhas and crowned king of Syria. He has proven a very bright lad, and high hopes are held out for him by William and many of his lords. Additionally William intended to promise Marie to a convent, but Frederick Barbarossa has been casually mentioning the possibility of a marriage to Conrad, the young Holy Roman Emperor.

Edgar the Atheling has two children. With Deborah of Abyssinia he has one son, Dawit, of whom he has not yet learned. Dawit is currently 12 years old, and a valued adopted son of the Nagas of Ethiopia. In addition, Edgar has one son, Cuthbert, born in 1074 or 5 to his wife Bertha of Holand. Edgar will also have a daughter, Edith, born in 1081.

Michael Doukhas and Margaret of Scotland have one son, Theodore, born in 1071, and a daughter, Irene, born in 1073.
Hildebrand of Antioch and Marie Diogenes have one son, Baldwin FitzHildebrand, born 1076.

A more substantial post dealing with biographies of current players will be coming soon.

[Jammy]

Good to see AJ.
Few points from what i can see there:
1) William Ruphus has't appeared to grasp the concept of the Witten choosing the king, this could lead to problems later on.

2) Interesting about Richard, i personally couldn't see it happening (becoming Emperor) he's been away from England and the main political players. The only way i see him becoming Emperor is if they (the Witten) think that they could control him.

3) Edward sounds interesting, particulary married to the daughter of the Emperor.

4) Marie and Conrad is certainly an interesting match, i think that could worry the pope, don't know why but its a feeling.

Can't wait for more, keep it up

[Shadow Knight]

I guess Henry wasn't born to William in TTL then?

[AJNolte]

Originally Posted by Shadow Knight

I guess Henry wasn't born to William in TTL then?

Since the butterflies would have probably effected William's family quite directly, I decided to somewhat butterfly him out. Edward Beauclerc will be quite similar in personality to Henry (similar upbringing after all, though if anything exposure to Syria will make him both more cultured and more ruthless). However, his name was changed, partially to appease the English.

[AJNolte]

Originally Posted by Jammy

Good to see AJ.
Few points from what i can see there:
1) William Ruphus has't appeared to grasp the concept of the Witten choosing the king, this could lead to problems later on.

2) Interesting about Richard, i personally couldn't see it happening (becoming Emperor) he's been away from England and the main political players. The only way i see him becoming Emperor is if they (the Witten) think that they could control him.

3) Edward sounds interesting, particulary married to the daughter of the Emperor.

4) Marie and Conrad is certainly an interesting match, i think that could worry the pope, don't know why but its a feeling.

Can't wait for more, keep it up

1. Well, I see no need to make William Ruphus one whit less problematic than he was OTL. His end here will be somewhat more embarrassing, and will put to rest forever the idea of a Normanization of England (at least a full one).
2. The imperial succession will be...interesting, and a somewhat patchwork affair (as indicated, their will be imperial succession wars).
3. Oh, he will be interesting.
4. It's a good match from the HRE's perspective, as it ensures them a generation of peace. It will turn out not to have been such a good match for the Greater Norman Empire, but that's down the pike.

[stevep]

Originally Posted by AJNolte

4. It's a good match from the HRE's perspective, as it ensures them a generation of peace. It will turn out not to have been such a good match for the Greater Norman Empire, but that's down the pike.

AJ

I see the advantages for the HRE in that it gives them a family link with the Norman empire, possibly reducing hostility between the two. However it also means that any children from that union could have a claim to Norman lands. Especially if internal conflict over the succession reduces both the potential number of claimants and their resources. Suspect that could be the problem your hinting at. Since their likely to be HRE it gives the latter an excuse to interfere and at worse try and take over.

More widely, given its geographical spread and the fact its spread out between William's sons I would wonder if the Norman empire would survive. Historically England and Normandy were only reunited after a war. With lands in Italy and Syria/Palestine as well it means both more rules to get deposed for any single claimant to reunite it and a much wider geographical spread. Both making unification more difficult and encouraging differing interests for the various regions. [For instance the lands in the Levant are going to be worried far more about their own threats, trades and neighbours than events in northern Europe and vice versa].

Anyway, continues to be a very good story. Many thanks.

Steve

[AJNolte]

Excerpts from: The Vita Hildebrandi (life of Saint Hildebrand).

Indeed, his rise is a sign of the very providence of God, who in His infinite wisdom took this poor and landless knight of Flanders and raised him up, making him great, bestowing on him accolades and titles, and eventually the great city of Antioch. He was, in general, mild in character when it came to peace, though ruthless in war and most effective in the prosecution thereof. Who else, but Saint Hildebrand, could have founded the order which later bore his name; a Christian brotherhood of warriors from every class and station dedicated to the protection of Christian lands from violent heathens, and to all Christians--the weak and poor foremost--from injustice? It was the foundation of the Hildebrandian Society, as it is now known, which preoccupied him from 1080 to his death twenty years later, by which point the Hildebrandians had spread throughout the Holy Land and Europe. Unlike the Templars or Hospitalers, the Hildebrandians had no vow of chastity, nor a strict vow of poverty, but only a more binding vow; to live out the spirot of the scripture which says: "Whatsoever yee do in word or deed, do it in the name of the Lord your God." Saint Hildebrand was the living example of this, for he never turned away a beggar hungry, and always sought to provide for those people entrusted to his care. The Hildebrandians were riggorous in the enforcement of this vow, willing and able to expell those from the Society who were conspicuously immoral, who oppressed those given unto their care, who lived other than in accord with the principles of the faith. It was also Saint Hildebrand who helped found the great missionary order, the Amadeians, who were at first led by his loyal squire Saint Amadeus. Throughout Syria and the Levant, in Egypt, Palestine and Anetolia, the Amadeians preached the Gospel to the Mussleman, and were well received. Many were themselves converts, who zealously worked to spread the cause of Christ. Yet the Amadeians never could have begun without the financial and moral support of Saint Hildebrand of Antioch.

[Scarecrow]

Bumping this because I want more.

[Analytical Engine]

Originally Posted by Scarecrow

Bumping this because I want more.

Yes, more please.

[Jammy]

Originally Posted by Analytical Engine

Yes, more please.

Thirded, agreed, whatever, i to would like more

[AJNolte]

Thanks guys, and I'll try to get more out soon. Right now I'm at my girl friend's place, and have catch-as-catch-can internet, so if you'll kindly bump this again this weekend I'll have more for you then.

A. J.

[Jammy]

Originally Posted by AJNolte

Thanks guys, and I'll try to get more out soon. Right now I'm at my girl friend's place, and have catch-as-catch-can internet, so if you'll kindly bump this again this weekend I'll have more for you then.

A. J.

You consider that more important and considered bump next week

[AJNolte]

Originally Posted by Jammy

You consider that more important and considered bump next week

Next week's fine. I'm frankly thinking of stepping back from the 1492 thing to spend time with this and Atlantis.
But like I've said before; I won't let this TL die so long as it's being read.

[AJNolte]

Alright, I was doing some background research on the Spanish kingdoms at the time and am somewhat confused.

As far as I can tell, Aragon and Navarre are jointly ruled at the time (1066-1080) by Sancho of Aragon and Navarre. Meanwhile, Castile, Leon and Galicia are ruled by Alphonso of Castile. As far as I can tell, this union, on the part of Navarre and Aragon, lasts OTL until the mid twelfth century (or is it early twelfth century?) and longer in Castile's case.
And the successions, marriages, etc, are a bit crazy. As far as I can tell Alphonso was married like three times and so was Sancho, sometimes to each other's relatives and, possibly in the case of one of them, to Philipa of Toulouse, sister of Raymond of Toulouse. There was also a marriage to Agness of Aquitaine I believe? Can someone help clear up this background?

Few other quick points:
Toulouse and Provence appear to both be ruled by Raymond of Toulouse. Should a Kingdom of Toulouse and Provence be proclaimed after the break-up of France?
The Duchy of lower Lorraine seems to be declining in importance. It's owned, for lack of a better term, by the Dukes of Bulogne. Are they direct vassals of the French King at this point or are they vassals of Willie?
And does anyone know anything about Sweyn Forkbeard's nineteen illegitimate sons? The war of Scandinavian Succession is gonna be ugly.

Thanks.

[AJNolte]

The Years of peace: 1080-1089.

From: Interlude: the time between Crises, article in Medieval Scholarship Review circa 1980.

With the dawn of the 1080s, peace descended on the three great empires. Byzantium, Normandy and the Holy Roman Empire took time to consolidate their various gains. Smaller nations did engage in warfare of course. Salia annexed the lower Lorraine, but held off any move on the upper Lorraine for the time being. The Spains were plagued by their incessant warfare, now joined by the still tentative Kingdom of Andalusia, from which Muslims were fleeing at a prodigious rate, mostly to the Moorish emirates. These nations in turn were engaged in border skirmishes with the Republic of Tunisia, which in it's turn was waging a highly successful campaign against the Banu Hilal under the direction of the able young general Bohemond Guiscard. And of course there was the greatest war of the decade, the War of Scandinavian Succession. Yet, compared to the conflicts before and the expansionist decades which followed, the 1080s were a remarkably tranquil one. The Hildebrandians grew in power and influence, as did the Templar and Hospitaler orders, though these latter two grew more slowly on account of the strictness of their rule. Jerusalem and Syria established themselves as equal kingdoms within the Greater Norman Empire, and Egypt under Frederick Hohenstaufen prospered.

From: The Making of Egypt, Studies in Nation-building during the Crusader Era. by Gerhardt Voner, University of Alexandria press, 1963.

Egypt after the crusades then, was a great hodge-podge of various Christians of several affiliations and, of course, the still substantial but rapidly shrinking Muslim population. King Frederick of Egypt moved quickly to deal with the problems, enacting reforms broadly similar to those used by Richard in Jerusalem. There were some differences however, mainly a far harsher cast to laws governing Islam. Fortunately for Egypt, Frederick proved an able administrator and received much cooperation from the Coptic bureaucrats and civil servants, whom he treated with respect. Soon, Egypt had established itself as a land within the empire where men of little or no means could, by dint of hard work and exemplary service, make their way in the world.

From: Three Young Men. (a popular historical romance of the 19th century.

In upbringing they were much the same; well-educated in matters of statecraft and faith, well-versed in the arts martial, familiar with cultures quite disparate from their own. Yet in personality they could not have been more different. Theodore was the first-born, beloved of his father, and his father's Virangian guards. These savage men of the north gained more influence over the prince as he grew older, and inculcated in him a love of battle and song, and a praise of courage and glorious victory above all. Theodore loved to hunt, he loved to fight and he loved to be beloved of the people. These factors marked his greatness. Edward was a different order of man altogether. Though at first intended for the church, he quickly found himself in the Kingdom of Syria, a nest of vipers and intriguers of every sort, while at the same time a center of high theological learning and debate, the battle field where adherents of varying creeds vied for supremacy and to convert the Muslim masses, a land of martyrdom and great faith. Edward learned the lessons of intriguers and dogmatists both; his quick mind took to scheming just as strongly as it shied away from dogma. Edward was at once fiercely religious and deeply sinical; as dedicated to faith as he was skeptical of theology. Though he did not love war he was good at it, and as for the people, he was pleased to be respected, rather than loved. Conrad, the youngest of the three, found himself beset by regents and plotters from an early age. Thus he quickly learned to put on the appearance of a malleable wine-loving and spoiled child, and later young man. He had many ostentacious affairs and escapades, not least among them the leadership of a company of mercenaries at the age of fifteen near the end of the War of Scandinavian succession (that he led them well and effectively is beyond doubt, though little was known of his exploits until later in his reign). Yet deep within Conrad there burned a desire to be his own master, to see his empire whole and united, and to curb the power of any who would stand in his way. That these three men were among the most remarkable emperors to rule concurrently is without doubt, and each ruled after the fashion of his own character. In the romance which follows, a story from the young manhood of each emperor will be told--which ilustrates the character of the man, and the empire he led.
(Note: the stories tell of Edward's discovery of a plot to murder his father while he was visiting Syria, the murder by treachery of a close confidant of Theodore's at the hands of a Muslim Turk thereby sparking Theodore's implacable hatred for them and the affore-mentioned story of Conrad leading a band of mercenaries in the Scandinavian war. They will not be told here in order to keep things moving, but I'm planning to go back and do some story spin-offs later on so these may be included).

********

Just a teaser for now: more, particularly Edgar's trip to Abyssinia, will follow later today.

[Shadow Knight]

Originally Posted by AJNolte

Egypt after the crusades then, was a great hodge-podge of various Christians of several affiliations and, of course, the majority Muslim population. King Frederick of Egypt moved quickly to deal with the problems, enacting reforms broadly similar to those used by Richard in Jerusalem.

It is my understanding that it has only been in recent times that Muslims were the majority of the population. For the longest time IIRC it was Coptic Christians who were the largest part of the population (if not in power).

[AJNolte]

Fixed.
And that does tend to make things easier.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Shadow Knight

It is my understanding that it has only been in recent times that Muslims were the majority of the population. For the longest time IIRC it was Coptic Christians who were the largest part of the population (if not in power).

[Shadow Knight]

Originally Posted by AJNolte

Fixed.
And that does tend to make things easier.

Thanks.

You're welcome.