Andrew Carnegie buys the Philippines

[Hermanubis]

According to Wikipedia

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Carnegie

Trivia

...
After the Spanish American War, Carnegie offered to buy the Phillipines for 20 million, because he felt they should be independent (anti-imperialist).

Of course, this is Wikipedia, so it can't be completely trusted (Thank you Abdul)

But still; What if?

[Wendell]

They become known as the Carnegienes?

Seriously, it would be interesting. Would he grant them their freedom, or once he had them, would he want the perks of ruling the place himself?

[Dean_the_Young]

I never knew he had attepted that, by I do have a very good idea as to why. And it wouldn't be out of the kindness of a ruthless robber baron's heart.

In the early years of America's imperial phase, no one was quite sure what their (territories) status would be. The big question was whether "The Constitution followed the Flag", or whether citizens in territories would get the same benefits from the Constitution as Americans in the conUS. IE, freedom of speech and religion, freedom to bear arms, and most importantly, the freedom to move freely and not have any trade barriers between states.

Remember, the Philippines had about the same population as the conUS. If they could freely immigrate into the US, the massive influx would drop wages incredibally low and easily ruing most low paid laborers. And if Philippine buisnesses could easily ship things into the US bypassing the tariff, cheap goods would flood the market and maim American buisnesses (coughCarnegiecough). Other Filipinoes would have moved into the western farmland, denying it to other immigrants and Americans. It would have been an economic disaster by the time it could get sorted out, and this was a time of economic growth and prosperity for the most part. (Not the roaring twenties, but still.)

So, in the Insular Cases, the somewhat conservative Supreme Court ruled that the Constitution did NOT follow the flag, and so stripped the masses of the Philippines of constitutional rights and protections.

Just setting the time period for the situation.

On the other hand, awhile ago I tried to start a DBWI on if a more liberal SC had ruled that the Constitution DID follow the flag, and granted the Philippines those Constitutional protections. It was an economic meltdown as expected until about WW2, during which real economic recovery began. However, no one posted and so it died.

[Alratan]

On the other hand, awhile ago I tried to start a DBWI on if a more liberal SC had ruled that the Constitution DID follow the flag, and granted the Philippines those Constitutional protections. It was an economic meltdown as expected until about WW2, during which real economic recovery began. However, no one posted and so it died.

Whilst it would lead to an immediate economic dislocation, I think it would be more like fifteen rather than 50 years before the US was making a significant net profit. Remember that there was free immigration from the Empire into Britain, and non of this came to pass in that case. People simply couldn't afford to pay the fare. As seen in Britain today, the deinflationary impact of a continual supply of cheap labour is actually good for the economy during times of growth, as it restrains inflation, and hence stabilises the economic

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by Alratan

Whilst it would lead to an immediate economic dislocation, I think it would be more like fifteen rather than 50 years before the US was making a significant net profit. Remember that there was free immigration from the Empire into Britain, and non of this came to pass in that case. People simply couldn't afford to pay the fare. As seen in Britain today, the deinflationary impact of a continual supply of cheap labour is actually good for the economy during times of growth, as it restrains inflation, and hence stabilises the economic

It was awhile ago, but I believe I was thinking of following the WW1 arms sale cliche to build up the finances, and then the inevitable Great Depression would crash it all down again. Creative, I know.

[MerryPrankster]

I think Carnegie was the most humane of all the so-called "robber barons." He lived simply, donated huge sums to charity, and the only incident (that I can recall) of anti-worker violence was conducted by one of his minions while he was away.

I think Carnegie was going to give the Filipinos their freedom.

Perhaps in TTL he becomes a Catholic saint? He was Protestant I think, but there are ways around it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by MerryPrankster

I think Carnegie was the most humane of all the so-called "robber barons." He lived simply, donated huge sums to charity, and the only incident (that I can recall) of anti-worker violence was conducted by one of his minions while he was away.

I think Carnegie was going to give the Filipinos their freedom.

Perhaps in TTL he becomes a Catholic saint? He was Protestant I think, but there are ways around it.

As far as robber barons go, I agree. I had forgotten his record, so perhaps you have a good point.

However, sainthood might be tricky. Spain, a very Catholic nation, lost the Philippines to the hands of a protestant nation. And this isn't the point in time where the Popes aren't allowed to be racist. So I doubt the Vatican would look kindly on the Philipines, no matter what an American did.

Perhaps later?

[stevep]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Remember, the Philippines had about the same population as the conUS.

Dean

I can see and agree with most of what your saying. Have read that one reason sizeable elements of the US business community was supporting Philippines independence in the 1930's was to remove it from the US tariff zone so it wouldn't compete with their businesses. [But still seeking to prevent the independent state having any restrictions on US exports to it]. Either that is wrong or the situation had changed since the start of the century in terms of what side of the US tariff barrier it was.

Don't see where you get this bit from however. That must be way off US population was about 90M by then and the Philippines had nothing like those numbers.

Steve

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by stevep

Dean

I can see and agree with most of what your saying. Have read that one reason sizeable elements of the US business community was supporting Philippines independence in the 1930's was to remove it from the US tariff zone so it wouldn't compete with their businesses. [But still seeking to prevent the independent state having any restrictions on US exports to it]. Either that is wrong or the situation had changed since the start of the century in terms of what side of the US tariff barrier it was.

Don't see where you get this bit from however. That must be way off US population was about 90M by then and the Philippines had nothing like those numbers.

Steve

It was one of those statistics you hear and assume to be true, but never bother to check. I believe the actual thing I heard was "the victory in Spanish-American War doubled the size of the American Empire", or something to those lines. If I had to guess, I think it was from a political cartoon/poster of the era, that had a giant eagle perched on the conUS whose wings spread from the east coast to the Philippines.

Out of curiosity, what was the population of the Philippines at the time?

[katipunero]

Had Mr. Carnegie succeeded in "purchasing" the Philippines, he would have tried to implement his political views in that place (and knowing the "opportunist" mindset of the dominant ilustrado class there, he would have succeeded). By the time the Philippines becomes independent (perhaps after the Second World War), we now have an ilustrado-dominant Filipino Republic in friendly (though not necessarily "slavish") relations with the US, thanks to that "wonderful" man who "saved" the Philippines, Andrew Carnegie...

[MerryPrankster]

Originally Posted by katipunero

Had Mr. Carnegie succeeded in "purchasing" the Philippines, he would have tried to implement his political views in that place (and knowing the "opportunist" mindset of the dominant ilustrado class there, he would have succeeded). By the time the Philippines becomes independent (perhaps after the Second World War), we now have an ilustrado-dominant Filipino Republic in friendly (though not necessarily "slavish") relations with the US, thanks to that "wonderful" man who "saved" the Philippines, Andrew Carnegie...

I think Carnegie offered to buy the Phillippines so that the islands would become independent.

Thus, you'd have a Filipino republic with Carnegian ideas (probably laissez-faire capitalism with benevolent rich) in 1898-1902, not 1945.

[Berra]

Doesn't that happen in the beginning of the progressive era? Without checking, wasn't Andrew Carnegie progressive?

[Hobelhouse]

In 1903 the Phillipines had 7,635,426 people, according to Kiwipedia.

[stevep]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

It was one of those statistics you hear and assume to be true, but never bother to check. I believe the actual thing I heard was "the victory in Spanish-American War doubled the size of the American Empire", or something to those lines. If I had to guess, I think it was from a political cartoon/poster of the era, that had a giant eagle perched on the conUS whose wings spread from the east coast to the Philippines.

Out of curiosity, what was the population of the Philippines at the time?

Dean

Hobelhouse dug up the answer to your question. Quite possibly the description mentioned would have been roughly accurate in terms of either population or land area. That is the various US territories and colonial possessions might have been something like the same size as the Philippines in either population and/or land area. However the wording would have excluded the population of the US themselves as not part of the US 'empire'. Probably explains why you got that impression if you mis-read it or the wording was actually a bit woollier than you remember.

Steve

[David S Poepoe]

Originally Posted by MerryPrankster

I think Carnegie offered to buy the Phillippines so that the islands would become independent.

Thus, you'd have a Filipino republic with Carnegian ideas (probably laissez-faire capitalism with benevolent rich) in 1898-1902, not 1945.

More than likely the Filipinos would thank Carnegie for the purchase and just govern themselves. They won't adopt any of his ideas. However, exactly how long can they remain independent with a soon to be aggressive and expanding Japan in the region.

[Melvin Loh]

So, no Philippine Insurrection with a Carnegie-liberated independent Philippines ?

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, not against a nonpresent US colonial authority at least.

However, there were great obstacles to the Philippines uniting and ruling themselves, such as a lack of common language (radically different regional dialects), a lack of land singularity (the thousands of islands aid in seperatism from each other), a lack of an educated class, a lack of a significant wealthy class, and so on.

Though the US military was brutal against rebels (and eventually squashed the insurgents), the US occupation did unify the Phillipines under a single government, teach many of the islanders basic language and academics, and otherwise set the islands up to be ruled as a single country, rather than a mishmash of regions that happen to be close to eachother.

[katipunero]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Well, not against a nonpresent US colonial authority at least.

However, there were great obstacles to the Philippines uniting and ruling themselves, such as a lack of common language (radically different regional dialects), a lack of land singularity (the thousands of islands aid in seperatism from each other), a lack of an educated class, a lack of a significant wealthy class, and so on....

EDIT: We did have an educated class back then. The likes of Jose Rizal, Marcelo H. del Pilar, Graciano Lopez-Jaena, even that of Aguinaldo, belonged to the ilustrado class, which started the so-called Philippine Revolution IOTL. Unfortunately, unlike most of those listed above, majority of the ilustrados weren't so patriotic, willing to collaborate with the enemy for their own gain (just look at what happened during the Filipino-American War...)

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by katipunero

EDIT: We did have an educated class back then. The likes of Jose Rizal, Marcelo H. del Pilar, Graciano Lopez-Jaena, even that of Aguinaldo, belonged to the ilustrado class, which started the so-called Philippine Revolution IOTL. Unfortunately, unlike most of those listed above, majority of the ilustrados weren't so patriotic, willing to collaborate with the enemy for their own gain (just look at what happened during the Filipino-American War...)

I apologize, what I said sounds condescending.

From what I remember from the (brief) studies involving the Philippines, most of the people were uneducated and lived in the countryside, with fewer in the way of big cities for modernization. One of the steps before a country can develope its own culture and arts is to become self-sufficient and settled to the point where a large number of people can afford to do something non-materially productive (like farm or make clothes). Then a country can afford to have a large number of people to study the sciences and arts, rather than a smaller handful of the rich and/or fortunate who don't need to work.

I had been under the impression that the educated class was relatively small back then (much like the early US), but I didn't mean to imply that there were no educated people period. Take the American colonies; they were largly uneducated during the formative years of the US, but they also produced jems such as Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin.

If I caused any offense, I apologize. Perhaps it would be better to say that the educated class was rather small, and could easily have struggled during early Philippino Independence?

[katipunero]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

I apologize, what I said sounds condescending.

Apology accepted...

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

From what I remember from the (brief) studies involving the Philippines, most of the people were uneducated and lived in the countryside, with fewer in the way of big cities for modernization. One of the steps before a country can develope its own culture and arts is to become self-sufficient and settled to the point where a large number of people can afford to do something non-materially productive (like farm or make clothes). Then a country can afford to have a large number of people to study the sciences and arts, rather than a smaller handful of the rich and/or fortunate who don't need to work.

And that's what you get when you get info from foreign "specialists" (don't mean to offend you, but it would be better to get your info on this writer's country from Filipino sources; most are in English).

You're probably talking about the indio class (or masa) who nevertheless produced such fine revolutionaries as Supremo Andres Bonifacio, Emilio Jacinto & Apolinario Mabini. The ilustrados during that time lived also in towns as well as cities; many of them (such as Isabelo de los Reyes) researched & wrote on the indigineous culture of this writer's homeland. However, the catalyst of our revolution wasn't a cultural awakening, rather due to the publication of a pair of novels that protested against the sociopolitical malaise of the then-colony Philippines during that time...

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

I had been under the impression that the educated class was relatively small back then (much like the early US), but I didn't mean to imply that there were no educated people period. Take the American colonies; they were largly uneducated during the formative years of the US, but they also produced jems such as Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin.

Kinda small, right...

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

If I caused any offense, I apologize. Perhaps it would be better to say that the educated class was rather small, and could easily have struggled during early Philippino Independence?

Many ilustrados during the Revolution and before that. Many of the ilustrados of the reformist Propaganda Movement died in abject poverty. Rizal was shot by a Spanish firing squad. During the Revolution of 1896, many ilustrados (even those who don't have any proven affiliation with the Katipunan) were arrested; many were executed...