WI Pre Columbian ideas and tech were universal in the Americas?

I've been watching Jared Diamond's docos, and his idea that the easy transmission if ideas, goods and technology through Eurasia is why Eurasian culture is so powerful and rich. WI in the Americas ideas, goods and technologies spead throughout the civilised sections of the continent within a century of their introduction? Mayan writing, Mexican wheel, Sth American Llamas, sailing rafts and bronze metallurgy could be the makings of a more powerful continent.

This would require things like roads and ships,and the Aztecs and Incas being aware that each other existed(They didnt).Hmm

This is where Diamond's theory has merit, there was no American equivilent of the Silk Road or the Monsoon sailing route to bring goods, techiques and ideas from one place to the next. Mayan writing stayed in the Yucatan Jungles, Mexican toy wheels stayed in the Mexican highlands, and Llamas, bronze tools and weapons and large sailing rafts stayed south of the equator. Widespread Bronze metallurgy alone opens up prospects for more advanced wood and stone working. Imagine if you will; Aztec Jaguar warriors with composite Llama-leather and bronze armour, carrying a heavy hardwood sheild (worked by bronze tools) and bronze a sword or spear, supported by a baggage train of pack Llamas and some pulling light buggies or waggons. At the very least the Spanish swords would have trouble with the hardwood sheilds.

The best thing to change this would be either the development of decent sailing technology - the sea and rivers were the best highways in Europe until the 1700s at least, and could have revolutionised the Americas - or the development of the wheel.

nunya said:

This would require things like roads and ships,and the Aztecs and Incas being aware that each other existed(They didnt).Hmm

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You're putting the cart before the horse. In pre-historic and early historic Eurasia, the only reason that various settled communities had any idea that other communities existed thousands of miles away was that nomadic tribes wandering across the continent would report that there were strange lands over the hills or beyond the seas. That's when the communities would start building roads and ships and finding each other intentionally.

The wheel was independently invented in Mexico, but only for toys. Perhaps the llama herding Sth Americans would have developed it further than the animal poor Mexicans, or the Mayans scaled up the toy into a handcart or wheelbarrow. The Sth Americans developed large sea-going sailing rafts, but geography and jungles conspired to keep it away from the Carribean. There do seem to be great difficulties for Amercian civilisations to interact with each other. But if a threshold of difficulty was crossed early on in history, perhaps by some visionary adventurer, would all the American societies be supercharged, or at least revved a bit higher, as a result?

Riain said:

The wheel was independently invented in Mexico, but only for toys. Perhaps the llama herding Sth Americans would have developed it further than the animal poor Mexicans, or the Mayans scaled up the toy into a handcart or wheelbarrow. The Sth Americans developed large sea-going sailing rafts, but geography and jungles conspired to keep it away from the Carribean. There do seem to be great difficulties for Amercian civilisations to interact with each other. But if a threshold of difficulty was crossed early on in history, perhaps by some visionary adventurer, would all the American societies be supercharged, or at least revved a bit higher, as a result?

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The wheel was only very rarely used in continental trade. The silk road and the carawany used camels. ITTL, they'd use lamas. Wheels need plain ground and roads. Mountainous regions are extremely difficult for wheels.

The problem now is, there might be lama caravans heading north from the incan empire, yet IOTL the silk road connected Europe to silk. What do the Mexicans have that the Incasn want so badly? Furthermore, the silk road crossed many established cultures, wheres between Mexico and the Incans we have only jungle.

In another post, it was proposed to let the Polynesians discover America and then let them form tribes of sea-nomads connecting the whole pacific coast of the Americas. Sooner or later Aztecs and Incans would form their own fleets and might try to establish land-based trade.

I've long argued that the most important thing that the natives could take from a Vinland contact would be the shipbuilding skills and marine attitude. For precisely that reason.

Yet the Vinland contacts were very late in the game for this. By then the Americas were so far behind in the race that accelerating at that stage would only help marginally.

I've also wanted to see a naval trading civilization in the Caribbean. Ideally something from the old world, bringing a second seed culture to the area. (Another reason, IMHO, for the lag of the Americas -only one seed culture.)

Tartessan, Carthagan, Roman, Minoan, all good. Some have been done, of course.

A native civilization does well too. A round trading wheel running from the mouth of the Missippi to the coasts of Venezuela would spread ideas and inventions around like thistledown in spring.

Maybe it could work if one big raft of the Inca is driven off course by a storm, finds the Aztecs and manages to return.

I have no easy answer for the mechanics of the trade routes, which is probably why they never occured in OTL. But oceangoing sailing rafts did exist, and presumably could sail to the west coast of Mexico. If the mechanics can be sorted out there are a number of ideas floating independently around the Amercias that if combined could make these states far more powerful compared to the Spanish.

Well, the question wasn't whether there could be an Americas-wide spread of Mesoamerican/Peruvian level civilization but what would be the result in the 16th century if there was.

Given the range of cultural expressions and technologies among the various Mesoamerican cultures and the various Peruvian cultures, Columbus and later explorers would immediately encouter a continentent divided among hundreds of small empires, city states, and kingdoms, all of which would possess complex and heirarchical social structures with hereditary nobilities, efficient maize, corn, and bean agriculture, intricate polytheistic pantheons, and varying degrees of urbanism. Some would possess complex written languages based on the syllabic and logographic Mayan script, others would use administrative record-keeping devices like the quipu, others the pictographic Mexican systems. Bronze metallurgy might be wide spread and diffusion if ideas between Peru and Mexico would probably have resulted in wider use of domestic draft animals. I question the idea of the "Mexican wheel", although it is remotely possible the availability of draft animals in Mexico might have created a reason for the toy to be given are real function.

A few states, most likely in Mexico and northern South America would probably be the most complex and static, while "barbarian" states in north america and places like Argentina near the margins of the core area might be more dynamic, flexible, and adaptable - having presumably been "civilized" for a shorter time.

This would certainly slow down, but perhaps not stop, the eventual European colonization of the new world. However, it might well assume the form it did in India, the near east, and parts of Asia - with Europeans assuming dominance over the American states by usurping local leaders, but with native languages and cultural traditions largely surviving intact. If (and it's a big if) the effects of disease could be curtailed, Europeans would probably not not become the dominant population group anywhere in the new world except perhaps for the extreme north and south where tropical maize/bean/squash agriculture might not be as effective as European wheat-based cereals.

Even as subordinant peoples, the local civilizations would quickly adopt elements of European technology such as iron, cattle, horses, effective wheeled vehicles, and other attributes of a medieval iron age society.

It's hard to say about religion. In some areas I suppose it is possible that native paganism might survive as Hinduism did, or synchetically mix with Christianity, but if these societies practiced cannibalism and human sacrifice as in OTL, I can't help but believe Europeans would attempt to overthrow the native faiths one way or the other. European colonialists could cooexist with subordinant Muslims or Hindus, but I doubt of they would tolerate Native priests dancing around in the flayed skins of too many virgins for too long without getting positively Spanishly Inquisitional.

About the wheel: Note that people in the Middle East also used them for chariots. Cavalry actually came later. Seems it's easier to put the horse before the cart than ride it (esp. without saddle).

There was a certain level of 'ship building' technology-the 'Carib Indians' (can never remember their correct name) built canoes that could easily sail between the islands and reach what is now Guyana for trade purposes.

I suppose one advantage of the spread of the mesoamerican civilisation would be this means better links so when the various europeans start turning up, news of them would spread quicker (though they might as well, due to better local info) and the locals would be a bit more ready for them, seeing them for what they were rather than returning gods, etc.

Max Sinister said:

About the wheel: Note that people in the Middle East also used them for chariots. Cavalry actually came later. Seems it's easier to put the horse before the cart than ride it (esp. without saddle).

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That's mostly because they had yet to breed horses with backs strong enough to carry a person. The load of a chariot is much better distributed.

zoomar said:

Well, the question wasn't whether there could be an Americas-wide spread of Mesoamerican/Peruvian level civilization but what would be the result in the 16th century if there was.

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One important thing: As you said, if the ideas already in America spread over the whole continent and maybe progress is accelerated, the Indians might be able to resist the conquest in the 15th century, but lateron they'd share the fate of Asia and Africa.

And I think this would be quite early, actually: Making the Native states more developped makes them even more interesting for Europeans. And American states are closer to Europe than Asia. Furthermore, deseases would still be a problem.

ITTL, Europeans would discover a whole continent full of well developped, wealthy countries, which would soon loose large portions of their population due to deseases, thus weakening these countries more than any Asian country was weakened. Furthermore, I doubt that the Natives would reach Asian tech-levels. Thus when European could conquer large parts of Asia in the 18th century, I think America would be conquered in the 17th century. And probably the whole of America would be conquered, since there wouldn't be "empty" areas with only "primitive" natives.

How developed could the American civilisations get with widespread elite literacy, bronze metalurgy, etc, etc? Would composite leather/bronze armour and heavy shields drive the development of more powerful missile weapons? Would the greater lethality of infantry lead to widespread masonary fortification, leading to the development of siege weapons? Would some carpenter make planks with his bronze tools, and use them to build a displacement boat, growing into a sailing ship?

Homer said:

The problem now is, there might be lama caravans heading north from the incan empire, yet IOTL the silk road connected Europe to silk. What do the Mexicans have that the Incasn want so badly?

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Good question... on the other hand, what did Europe have that China wanted? I'm pretty sure the Silk Road operated on a rather large trade deficit, in favor of China, meaning a lot of gold went only one way, which was from Europe to China. So, the Mexicans probably don't have a lot the Inca want, but the Inca... they have fantastic textiles and bronze tools and weapons, and there would certainly be a demand for these in Mexico. Which means the Mexicans would pay with whatever they could trade. Most likely gold and other precious metals/gems, though perhaps the Inca might also be interested in rubber?

Furthermore, the silk road crossed many established cultures, wheres between Mexico and the Incans we have only jungle.

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Only jungle is a bit of an overstatement. First of all the tribes living in Panama and Columbia were actually rather advanced. And second of all the distance between the borders of the Aztec Empire and the borders of the Inca Empire was a lot less than the distance between Europe and China... probably 5000 miles less.

On the subject of disease: I have been wondering lately what the effects would have been if some small European expedition would accidentally find its way into the New World, yet stranded there, and had no other notable effect on future developments other than introducing some of the more virulent European diseases there.

Obviously, on the short therm, the effects would be disastrous for the natives.

But if this happens, say, a hundred years before Columbus, then the Amerindians would propably
have enough time to become resistant to at least a small number of European diseases like smallpox.

That might reduce the disease-advantage that the Spanish had...

Ran Exilis said:

On the subject of disease: I have been wondering lately what the effects would have been if some small European expedition would accidentally find its way into the New World, yet stranded there, and had no other notable effect on future developments other than introducing some of the more virulent European diseases there.

Obviously, on the short therm, the effects would be disastrous for the natives.

But if this happens, say, a hundred years before Columbus, then the Amerindians would propably
have enough time to become resistant to at least a small number of European diseases like smallpox.

That might reduce the disease-advantage that the Spanish had...

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Ran

It would probably have reduced it a little but how much. Doubtful such a small expedition would have had the full range of diseases that caused such destruction. Also how far would the diseases have spread, especially presuming the historical limited communication between the various areas in the region. Might have devastated one region but left others vulnerable to later infections.

The other impact would be how well might the infected areas recover from the initial infection. In something which lingered with outbreaks occurring for several decades then recovery would be fairly slow and you might even seen the region abandon as cursed in some way. Also it would depend on how the culture react to the Europeans. If they were identified as the source of the plagues then future visitors might be viewed as demons of some kind with immediate hostility or seeking to avoid any contact. Alternatively if the party run into a group like the Aztecs and are quickly slaughtered and the pandemics occur after that it might be seen as some sort of retribution from the Gods. In that case the next set of European visitors might be viewed as semi-divine further increasing their ability for conquest and destruction.

Steve

How did the Vinland Skrealings go with diseases in their contact with the Vikings? The story in the south was that disease spread very quickly to empty north America long before Europeans tried to settle there. Surely contact in Vinland over 20 years in 1000AD(ish) would have done something similar from this point of contact.