AH Challenge: Catholic Japan.

maverick

Banned
Your challenge is to have Japan as a mostly catholic country by 1899, with a POD no later than the arrival of the first portuguese at the XVI Century.
 
In the Shikaku-Mon TL from Gurps AE, Francis Xavier has a Portuguese companion, survives his fever, lives on for 20 more years -> Japanese jesuits, more converts, and some Christian saving Oda Nobunaga from being murdered (although that's a legend). At the end, the Christians are too numerous to be eradicated as IOTL. From then on, it's only a matter of time.
 
In 1613 (OTL 1616), Tokugawa Ieyasu dies of a fever. Several clans rally around Toyotomi Hideyori, heir of Toyotomi Hideyoshi, as the rightful Shogun.

When Tokugawa Hidetada demanded assistance from Date Masamune, they quarreled.

With the wannabe Shoguns battling in the south, Masamune consolidates his position in the north. In 1620, Luis Sotelo and Hasekura Tsunenaga return from their trip to Mexico and Europe. From their trip, trading relations are established with Spain and a new diocese is formed.

By the 1630s, there is a Portugese/Jesuit diocese in Nagasaki, an English trading post in Edo, and a Spanish/Fransican diocese at Sendai. Will Toyotomi Hideyori prevail? Or will Tokugawa Hidetada retain his position as Shogun? Or maybe Date Masamune will unite Japan under the Date Shogunate?

By this time there is no central authority that can abolish Christianity. Chances are that the Europeans will influence the outcome in some way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_Masamune
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Sotelo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_warship_San_Juan_Bautista
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasekura_Tsunenaga

especially the section Aftermath
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sekigahara

especially the section Establishment of an English trading factory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Adams_%28sailor%29

This has some of its own possibilities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arima_Harunobu
 
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Alcuin

Banned
In the Shikaku-Mon TL from Gurps AE, Francis Xavier has a Portuguese companion, survives his fever, lives on for 20 more years -> Japanese jesuits, more converts, and some Christian saving Oda Nobunaga from being murdered (although that's a legend). At the end, the Christians are too numerous to be eradicated as IOTL. From then on, it's only a matter of time.

But if I remember rightly, the actual PoD was the survival of John Trastamara as King of Spain in place of Joan the Mad.
 
Your challenge is to have Japan as a mostly catholic country by 1899, with a POD no later than the arrival of the first portuguese at the XVI Century.

Define Catholic.

Are we talking about a plurality that shows up to mass a little more often than the buddhist temples?

A state and society marching in lock-step with Rome?

The seat of the True Catholic Faith (much like Canterbury) standing in defiance?

What?

HTG
 

maverick

Banned
Not sure. Something like Germany or the USA in the sense that there's no predominant religion: 45% Catholic, 15% protestant, the rest buddhist.

I don't mean Catholic in the sense of the Shogun being a puppet of the pope. Catholic in the sense of just being christian.

I thought about a protestant Japan, but I saw this article about an AH book in which Ireland is the head of an alternate United Kingdom with an irish brazil, a somewhat Aztec empire in a permanent cold war with the Empire and jesuit samurais.
 

maverick

Banned
In 1613 (OTL 1616), Tokugawa Ieyasu dies of a fever. Several clans rally around Toyotomi Hideyori, heir of Toyotomi Hideyoshi, as the rightful Shogun.

When Tokugawa Hidetada demanded assistance from Date Masamune, they quarreled.

With the wannabe Shoguns battling in the south, Masamune consolidates his position in the north. In 1620, Luis Sotelo and Hasekura Tsunenaga return from their trip to Mexico and Europe. From their trip, trading relations are established with Spain and a new diocese is formed.

By the 1630s, there is a Portugese/Jesuit diocese in Nagasaki, an English trading post in Edo, and a Spanish/Fransican diocese at Sendai. Will Toyotomi Hideyori prevail? Or will Tokugawa Hidetada retain his position as Shogun? Or maybe Date Masamune will unite Japan under the Date Shogunate?

By this time there is no central authority that can abolish Christianity. Chances are that the Europeans will influence the outcome in some way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_Masamune
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Sotelo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_warship_San_Juan_Bautista
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasekura_Tsunenaga

especially the section Aftermath
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sekigahara

especially the section Establishment of an English trading factory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Adams_%28sailor%29

This has some of its own possibilities.
[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arima_Harunobu"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arima_Harunobu[/URL]

I really like that idea. So much that I'm thinking about doing a Timeline about it, especially around Date Masamune.
 
Not sure. Something like Germany or the USA in the sense that there's no predominant religion: 45% Catholic, 15% protestant, the rest buddhist.

I don't mean Catholic in the sense of the Shogun being a puppet of the pope. Catholic in the sense of just being christian.

Given the relationship between the church being set up by the Iberians in OTL and the Japanese, I suspect it would be inevitable that the place would end up at least as protestant as England to the degree it became christian at all.

HTG
 

Faeelin

Banned
A Catholic Japan, as opposed to a Japan with a large Catholic population, seems fairly unlikely to me.

Given the fate of Catholics OTL, I mean.

And the Jesuit habit of treating Christians as vassals of the king of Spain.
 
A Catholic Japan, as opposed to a Japan with a large Catholic population, seems fairly unlikely to me.

Given the fate of Catholics OTL, I mean.

And the Jesuit habit of treating Christians as vassals of the king of Spain.

Perhaps if the Jesuits cut that out, people in high places stop fearing Catholicism as a subversive influence?
 

maverick

Banned
A Catholic Japan, as opposed to a Japan with a large Catholic population, seems fairly unlikely to me.

Given the fate of Catholics OTL, I mean.

And the Jesuit habit of treating Christians as vassals of the king of Spain.

I actually a Japan with a large catholic population, like Germany nor the United States, but Catholic Japan sounded better at the time.
 
Samurai & Jesuits

Well, WI the r'ships between the Jesuits & the Samurai was developed more in Japan ? Both have been argued by contemporary historians as progenitors of the SS, so WI they both became linked into each other, mutually fed off 1 another, & then the Catholic Samurai class was able to transpose their new religion down to the everyday ppl too ?
 
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