general_tiu
Banned
If the Islamic States in 800s had gone more serious in invading China, would all or at least part of China would be Muslim?
Islamic China
- Thread starter general_tiu
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The Sandman
Banned
You mean besides the western parts that already are? And with profitable expansion opportunities closer to hand in Africa, Europe, and even South Asia, why go after China that early?
The Sandman
Banned
Because people with bad hearing might think that they're being attacked by a Textile Horde? I can just see the ad campaign for that now: "Cotton, the fabric of your deaths".
It would propably be almost identical to the Hui society, but then a whole empire like that.
And that is indeed quite an interesting scenario.
Yes, lots and lots of the Hui... I'd imagine China would be in contact with the West muuuch longer, as they are connected to the Middle East. Probably a more adventurous culture, too.
Keenir
Banned
didn't Confuciusian(sp) thought have people looking down on merchants?
as opposed to Islam, where the Prophet himself (and at least one of his wives) were merchants.
interesting times, as they say.
either way, I look forward to an ATL within or relating to this thread.
Hendryk
Banned
Invading China is one thing, converting its population quite another. China has been conquered time and again, but, as a rule, the invaders ended up assimilated into Chinese civilization. The very best that Muslim invaders might be able to hope for would be for the kind of situation in Mughal India, with a Muslim elite and an upper class of converts, with the bulk of the population retaining its own religious traditions. And even then the analogy only goes so far, as by the time of the Mughal conquest parts of India had been exposed to Islam for a long time and had developed a thriving Muslim culture, whereas in the 800s Islam was still foreign to China; the conversion of the Turkic peoples of Xinjiang had barely begun, and the Hui would only convert in later centuries. Further, unlike India's cultural patchwork, China's Han heartland was solidly unified under a single culture, which was at the time busily expanding east to Korea and Japan and south to Vietnam.
Max Sinister
Banned
When missionaries started to spread christianity among the population, later the Taiping happened. What'd happen if Islam spread instead?
Hendryk
Banned
The Taiping weren't just a consequence of missionary activity. Mostly, when the missionaries tried to spread Christianity in normal circumstances, they'd gain a few converts here and there, and that would be it. But by the mid-19th century, trauma upon trauma was piling up: Western-fostered opium addiction, military defeats, economic crisis, rampant corruption, breakdown of the government-maintained hydraulic infrastructure leading to environmental catastrophes (such as the Yellow River actually changing course in 1855), you name it. In such a context, the kind of pre-packaged, ready-to-eat, millenarist spirituality served by Protestant missionaries, once adapted to local tastes by Hong Xiuquan, found widespread appeal. But it would have remained just another mildly annoying secret society rather than a mass insurgency had the context not been so favorable to religious upheaval.
ninebucks
Banned
Would a Hui polity ever attempt to claim the Mandate of Heaven? Or is the idea too un-Islamic? Because they are going to need to do so, you can't really hope to convert the Chinese political system, not after it has been established for thousands of years already.
But lets say that in the early days, Islam spreads East easier (perhaps there is a stronger, more Christian Egypt blocking it to the West). Genghyz Khan is butterflied away, but a Muslim analogue does appear and is able to unite the North Asian nomads in an invasion of China. That invasion succeeds, but eventually gets assimilated into the Chinese system, however, its legacy includes the decoupling of Confucianism from the traditional ruling elite. A century or two later, a Hui Muslim polity in the West claims the Mandate of Heaven, defeats its opponents, and established a Hui Dynasty. Hui China institutes many reforms, and decreases the levels of extravagence in the Imperial capital (its still extravagant, but in a humble, nomadic Muslim chic kinda way), following an outburst of corruption amongst the outlying governors who no longer feel bound to Confucian values, the Hui Emperor makes Islamic scholarship compulsary for the aristocracy. Hui China frees its ports for use by other Islamic states, thus creating some fairly solid relationships between the Imperial Far East and the Caliphatic Middle East. Muslim traders flood the Chinese coast, and vice versa, the two civilisations trade technical expertise, strategic knowledge and cultural memes until such a point as the Hui Huangdi and the Islamic (the Ottomans themselves may be butterflied away) Caliph view each other as equals.
The relationship allows both partners to avoid the decay they experienced in OTL. By the present day, China is mostly Muslim, with pockets of traditional worship in the interior and the Himilayas.
But lets say that in the early days, Islam spreads East easier (perhaps there is a stronger, more Christian Egypt blocking it to the West). Genghyz Khan is butterflied away, but a Muslim analogue does appear and is able to unite the North Asian nomads in an invasion of China. That invasion succeeds, but eventually gets assimilated into the Chinese system, however, its legacy includes the decoupling of Confucianism from the traditional ruling elite. A century or two later, a Hui Muslim polity in the West claims the Mandate of Heaven, defeats its opponents, and established a Hui Dynasty. Hui China institutes many reforms, and decreases the levels of extravagence in the Imperial capital (its still extravagant, but in a humble, nomadic Muslim chic kinda way), following an outburst of corruption amongst the outlying governors who no longer feel bound to Confucian values, the Hui Emperor makes Islamic scholarship compulsary for the aristocracy. Hui China frees its ports for use by other Islamic states, thus creating some fairly solid relationships between the Imperial Far East and the Caliphatic Middle East. Muslim traders flood the Chinese coast, and vice versa, the two civilisations trade technical expertise, strategic knowledge and cultural memes until such a point as the Hui Huangdi and the Islamic (the Ottomans themselves may be butterflied away) Caliph view each other as equals.
The relationship allows both partners to avoid the decay they experienced in OTL. By the present day, China is mostly Muslim, with pockets of traditional worship in the interior and the Himilayas.
Hendryk
Banned
We're talking about the 1200s here, and the situation is no longer the same as during the 800s. A "decoupling" of Confucianism and the ruling elite had taken place before, during the "Chinese middle age" between the fall of the Han dynasty and the rise of the Tang dynasty; at the time the ascendant religion was Buddhism, and Confucianism was sidelined as an ideology (though its ethos did remain influential, as it had always been and will probably always be). But by the 1200s a revival of Confucian thought has taken place and the ideology is once again fused to the state apparatus, a position it won't relinquish until the collapse of the Imperial system itself in 1911.
The Mongols tried just that, but within three generations they had embraced the lavish Imperial pomp. What would make the Hui any different?
Different kind of a monarch? I mean Kublai was a buddhist wasn´t he? (Although he does seem to be rather an atheist or agnostic compared to how he acts towards religion)
I wonder if you might not get a new Sino-Islamic synthesis that might be appealing to the majority. H has good arguments for a lack of true Chinese Islamisization, but any scenario which sees an Islamic conquest....I doubt the muslims are likely to abandon Islam and be absorbed. More likely eventually kicked out if anything. (Whole Abrahamic fanaticism thing).
But a sort of cultural compromise....Confusius...the previously unknown prophet...type thing.
But a sort of cultural compromise....Confusius...the previously unknown prophet...type thing.
(Okay, the grasshopper thing was uneccessary...
Max Sinister
Banned
Because he tolerated all the religions, or for other reasons?
Problem: The Quran explicitly tells that the only prophets were Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ and Mohammed. Adding Confucius or anyone else would be considered heretic. Of course, given that China has a long history, and that they're relatively isolated by oceans, mountains and deserts, such a heresy could actually develop, and more important, survive in China.
I don't know about that. I've definately seen / read some Muslim imans / scholars talking about how god has sent a prophet to every nation and how there might be as many as 240,000 prophets through history. And the Mohammed's significance is that he was the last, and the best, but that the Biblical prophets aren't the only. I'm sure there's more than one school of thought on this.
Prophethood in Islam
Prophethood is not unknown to heavenly revealed religions, such as Judaism and Christianity. In Islam, however, it has a special status and significance.
According to Islam, Allah created man for a noble purpose: to worship Him and lead a virtuous life based on His teachings and guidance. How would man know his role and the purpose of his existence unless he received clear and practical instructions of what Allah wants him to do? Here comes the need for prophethood. Thus Allah has chosen from every nation at least one prophet to convey His Message to people.
One might ask, how were the prophets chosen and who were entitled to this great honor?
Prophethood is Allah's blessing and favor that He may bestow on whom He wills. However, from surveying the various messengers throughout history, three features of a prophet may be recognized:
1. He is the best in his community morally and intellectually. This is necessary because a prophet's life serves as a role model for his followers. His personality should attract people to accept his message rather than drive them away by his imperfect character. After receiving the message, he is infallible. That is, he would not commit any sin. He might make some minor mistakes, which are usually corrected by revelation.
2. He is supported by miracles to prove that he is not an imposter. Those miracles are granted by the power and permission of God and are usually in the field in which his people excel and are recognized as superiors. We might illustrate this by quoting the major miracles of the three prophets of the major world religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Moses' contemporaries were excellent in magic, so his major miracle was to defeat the best magicians of Egypt of his days. Jesus' contemporaries were recognized as skilled physicians, therefore, his miracles were to raise the dead and cure incurable diseases. The Arabs, the contemporaries of the Prophet Muhammad, were known for their eloquence and magnificent poetry. So Prophet Muhammad's major miracle was the Qur'an, the equivalent of which the whole legion of Arab poets and orators could not produce, despite the repeated challenge from the Qur'an itself. Again, Muhammad's miracle has something special about it. All previous miracles were limited by time and place; that is, they were shown to specific people at a specific time. Not so with the miracle of Prophet Muhammad
, the Qur'an. It is a universal and everlasting miracle. Previous generations witnessed it and future generations will witness its miraculous nature in terms of its style, content and spiritual uplifting. These can still be tested and will thereby prove the divine origin of the Qur'an.Prophets are necessary for conveying God's instructions and guidance to mankind. We have no way of knowing why we were created. What will happen to us after death? Is there any life after death? Are we accountable for our actions? These and so many other questions about God, angels, paradise, hell, and more, cannot be answered without direct revelation from the Creator and Knower of the unseen. Those answers must be authentic and must be brought by individuals whom we trust and respect. That is why messengers are the elite of their societies in terms of moral conduct and intellectual ability.
- Every prophet states clearly that what he receives is not of his own, but from God for the well-being of mankind. He also confirms what was revealed before him and what may be revealed after him. A prophet does this to show that he is simply conveying the message that is entrusted to him by the One True God of all people in all ages. So the message is one in essence and for the same purpose. Therefore, it should not deviate from what was revealed before him or what might come after him.
Hence, the slanderous Biblical stories about some of the great prophets are not accepted by Muslims. For example, Lot is reported to have committed incestuous fornication while drunk. David is alleged to have sent one of his leaders to his death in order to marry his wife. Prophets, to Muslims, are greater than what these stories indicate. These stories cannot be true from the Islamic point of view.
The prophets are also miraculously supported by God and instructed by Him to affirm the continuity of the message. The content of the prophets' message to mankind can be summarized as follows:
a) Clear concept of God: His attributes, His creation, what should and should not be ascribed to Him.
b) Clear idea about the unseen world, the angels, jinn (spirits), Paradise and Hell.
c) Why God has created us, what He wants from us and what rewards and punishments are for obedience and disobedience.
d) How to run our societies according to His will. That is, clear instructions and laws that, when applied correctly and honestly, will result in a smoothly functioning, harmonious society.
It is clear from the above discussion that there is no substitute for prophets. Even today with the advancement of science, the only authentic source of information about the supernatural world is revelation. Guidance can be obtained neither from science nor from mystic experience. The first is too materialistic and limited; the second is too subjective and frequently misleading.
Now one might ask:
How many prophets has God sent to humanity? We do not know for sure. Some Muslim scholars have suggested 240, 000 prophets. We are only sure of what is clearly mentioned in the Qur'an, that God has sent a messenger to every nation. That is because it is one of God's principles that He will never call a people to account unless He has made clear to them what to do and what not to do. The Qur'an mentions the names of 25 prophets and indicates that there have been others who were not mentioned to Prophet Muhammad. These 25 include Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad (Peace be upon them all). These five are the greatest among God's messengers. They are called ( ) 'the resolute' prophets.
An outstanding aspect of the Islamic belief in prophethood is that Muslims believe in and respect all the messengers of God with no exceptions. All the prophets came from the same One God, for the same purpose: to lead mankind to God. Hence, belief in them all is essential and logical; accepting some and rejecting others has to be based on misconceptions of the prophet's role or on a racial bias. The Muslims are the only people in the world who consider the belief in all the prophets an article of faith. Thus the Jews reject Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them), and the Christians reject Muhammad. The Muslims accept them all as messengers of God who brought guidance to mankind. However, the revelations which those prophets before Muhammadbrought from God has been tampered with in one way or another.
The belief in all the prophets of God is enjoined upon the Muslims in the Qur'an:
Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us and that which was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael, and Isaac and Jacob, and their children, and that which Moses and Jesus received and that the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them and unto Him we have surrendered. (2:136)
The Qur'an continues in the following verses to instruct the Muslims that this is the true and impartial belief. If other nations believe in the same, they are following in the right track. If they do not, they must be following their own whims and biases and God will take care of them. Thus we read:
And if they believe in what you believe, then they are rightly guided. But if they turn away, then they are in disunity, and Allah will suffice you against them. He is the Hearer, the Knower. This is God's religion and who is better than God in religion? (2:137-138)
There are, at least, two important points related to prophethood that need to be clarified. These points concern the roles of Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them) as prophets who are usually misunderstood.
The Qur'anic account of Jesus emphatically rejects the concept of his 'divinity' and 'divine sonship' and presents him as one of the great prophets of God. The Qur'an makes it clear that the birth of Jesus without a father does not make him the son of God and mentions, in this respect, Adam, who was created by God without a father or mother.
Truly, the likeness of Jesus, in God's sight, is as Adam's likeness; He created him of dust, them said He unto him "Be", and he was. (3:59)
Like other prophets, Jesus also performed miracles. For example, he raised the dead and cured the blind and lepers, but while showing these miracles, he always made it clear that it was all from God. Actually, the misconceptions about the personality and mission of Jesusfound a way among his followers because the Divine message he preached was not recorded during his presence in the world. Rather, it was recorded after a lapse of about one hundred years. According to the Qur'an, he was sent to the children of Isreal; he confirmed the validity of the Torah, which was revealed to Moses, and he also brought the glad tidings of a final messenger after him.
And when Jesus son of Mary said, "Children of Israel. I am indeed the messenger to you, confirming the Torah that is before me, and giving good tidings of a Messenger who shall come after me, whose name shall be the praised one. (61:6)
(The underlined portions the translation of Ahmad, which is Prophet Muhammad's name.)
However, the majority of the Jews rejected his ministry. They plotted against his life and in their opinion, crucified him. But the Qur'an refutes this opinion and says that they neither killed him nor crucified him; rather, he was raised up to God. There is a verse in the Qur'an which implies that Jesus will come back and all the Christians and Jews will believe in him before he dies. This is also supported by authentic sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (PBEH).
The last prophet of God, Muhammad, was born in Arabia in the sixth century C.E. Up to the age of forty, people of Makkah knew him only as a man of excellent character and cultured manners and called him Al-Ameen (the trustworthy). He also did not know that he was soon to be made a prophet and receiver of revelation from God. He called the idolators of Makkah to worship the one and only God and accept him (Muhammad, PBUH) as His prophet. The revelation that he received was preserved in his lifetime in the memory of his companions and was also recorded on pieces of palm leave, leather, etc. Thus the Qur'an that is found today is the same that was revealed to him, not a syllable of it has been altered, as God Himself has guaranteed its preservation. This Qur'an claims to be the book of guidance for all of humanity for all times, and mentions Muhammadas the last Prophet of God.
http://islamicweb.com/begin/prophethood.htm
So, I'd suspect any politically minded Muslim combined with any politically minded Chinese Confuciun could make something fit. Assuming there ever arose a clique of rulers with the desire and open-mindedness to do so. Which is a big question, as it'd take someone of definately non-Whabbist, fundamentalist bent to open up Confucious. Although if I were a muslim ruler of China, and wanted my son to inherent the throne, and could bribe / threaten some folks to put this forward, I'd certainly do it. Course, 've never had 500,000 islamic warriors at my back and a hapless oriental empire to the fore.
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