Dutch Rhineland

During the treaty of Vienna The future Dutch king Willem I did not only asked for the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg, but also asked to add the rhineland between the rivers rhine and Mosselle to his kingdom (the green part on the map). He didn't get it, mainly because Prussia also wanted the area. What if for some reason Prussia decided not to claim the area (because they get Saxony like in DrakeRlugia timeline or some other reason) and it goes to the Netherlands.
What would be the effect of having this area to the Netherlands. Could the German areas be assimilated into the Netherlands? The northern parts used a
dialect that was closely related to Dutch (well technically Dutch is just one of those dialects) and in the beginning of the 19th century German wasn't widespread in those regions. Or would you get a country with 3 languages, a Dutch speaking northwest, a frech speaking Belgium and a German speaking southwest?
What would be the effect of the Belgian independence? Would there even be a Belgian independence movement? With a larger non-Dutch population I can see them getting more rights than they had during OTL. Would the Germans revolt at the same time as the Belgians and create another independent state. Or would they support the Dutch who with their help defeat the Belgians quickly and let them stay in the Netherlands?
What would be the effect on the German unification? Would it be butterflied away when Prussia doesn't have areas in northwest Germany? Would Prussia go to war with the Netherlands to incorporate the rhineland in Germany or would they leave it part of the Netherlands?
What do you think?

The Rhineland would almost certainly be put under a regime of Netherlandization (only Dutch as official language, etc).
If the Belgian revolt happens (and I don't see why not, we weren't big on autonomy and minority rights back then) I'd suspect the Rhineland would join in.
I doubt they'd want to be incorporated into Belgium, so maybe they establish a seperate Rhineland state, incorporating the eastern (non-Walloon) half of Luxemburg. Or they (and aformentioned half of Luxemburg) get annexed by Prussia. Though this might get them into a row with France, which has designs on Luxemburg of its own.

Lord Sander,

pompejus said:

During the treaty of Vienna The future Dutch king Willem I did not only asked for the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg, but also asked to add the rhineland between the rivers rhine and Mosselle to his kingdom (the green part on the map). He didn't get it, mainly because Prussia also wanted the area.

What if for some reason Prussia decided not to claim the area (because they get Saxony like in DrakeRlugia timeline or some other reason) and it goes to the Netherlands.

What would be the effect of having this area to the Netherlands. Could the German areas be assimilated into the Netherlands?

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Well, IMHO it would be quite likely that if the Rhineland became and remained Dutch, its population would be as Dutch as the people of southern Limburg (the southeasternmost part of the Netherlands).

However, I should add to that that, even though the people of Limburg commonly regard themselves as Dutch, these people speak a dialect that is absolutely unintelligeble with common Dutch or any of the surrounding Dutch dialects, including Flemish.

In fact, the dialect of (southern) Limburg bears more resemblance to the German dialects that are spoken just on the other side of the border than it does to the Dutch dialects.

The reason for that is that Limburg didn't become Dutch territory until IIRC the Congress of Vienna, on which William I also tried to get the Rhineland. And because Limburg has been assimilated into the Netherlands quite successfully ever since, I think that assimilating the Rhineland wouldn't be too much of a problem either.

pompejus said:

The northern parts used a dialect that was closely related to Dutch (well technically Dutch is just one of those dialects) and in the beginning of the 19th century German wasn't widespread in those regions.

Or would you get a country with 3 languages, a Dutch speaking northwest, a frech speaking Belgium and a German speaking southwest?

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Well, I guess that especially the northern areas of the Rhineland and Limburg the Dutch language would dominate fairly quickly, while local German dialects will propably remain the local dominant language in the area between Aken, Cologne, Koblenz and the city of Luxemburg, perhaps with a status similar to the Frisian language.

Anyway, I think that the result would be that the Netherlands would have some large linguisitic minorities, and that Dutch is commonly used as the second language.

pompejus said:

What would be the effect of the Belgian independence? Would there even be a Belgian independence movement? With a larger non-Dutch population I can see them getting more rights than they had during OTL.

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Keep in mind that there wasn't really a "Belgian" minority in the Netherlands, but rather a French-speaking Walloon minority. The Flemish were at this point just Dutch, even though they were Catholics, so the issues with rights given to a certain part of the population would either concern the Walloons alone or all Dutch in general.

And I can't really see any Dutch Germans getting really worked up about an issue that concerns only the Walloons...

pompejus said:

Would the Germans revolt at the same time as the Belgians and create another independent state. Or would they support the Dutch who with their help defeat the Belgians quickly and let them stay in the Netherlands?

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Well, the question here is how willing the Rhineland Germans would be to join with the French-speaking Walloons (the whole separation of Belgium was mainly the work of the Wallonian aristocracy).

And given the fact that Germans were usually not that willing to just join French-speaking and somewhat pro-French aristocrats, it is not that likely that they would give strong support to the separatists.

I think that the Dutch Germans would be inclined to support the Dutch againest the Walloons, but that's a guesstimate.

It is also worth noting that in OTL, the German-speaking part of Luxemburg (which was part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands at the time) didn't join the Belgian revolution, although the French-speaking western part of Luxemburg did join the Revolution (this part of Luxemburg is today a Belgian province that is also called Luxemburg).

...but we have to keep in mind here that the whole separation of Belgium had its reasons, and most of there reasons were the result of the reign of the autocratic king William I.

I'll have to brush up on my knowledge about the Dutch political developments of this period, but nonetheless I'd say that if king William I had ruled differently (i.e. less autocratic and more willing to listen to the people and the aristocracy), then the whole separation of Belgium might have been avoided alltogether, or it may just not have gained the momentum it gained in OTL.

Anyway, if there would be a German breakaway state in this scenario, then it will propably include Luxemburg, even though I am not sure on wether it would be centred around Luxemburg.

And I'm also pretty sure that any German breakaway state would propably come under the influence of Prussia and the German Confederation really soon. It would propably join the German Confederation only a few years after its independance, and would then be assimilated into the German Empire along with the rest of the Confederation.

pompejus said:

What would be the effect on the German unification? Would it be butterflied away when Prussia doesn't have areas in northwest Germany? Would Prussia go to war with the Netherlands to incorporate the rhineland in Germany or would they leave it part of the Netherlands?

What do you think?

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I doubt the German unification would be butterflied away by just this.

The Rhineland was not the only Prussian territory in Northwestern Germany, and even without the Rhineland, at this point in time, Prussia was beginning to dominate northern Germany anyway.

The Prussians would defenitely not have liked losing the Rhineland to the Netherlands, although I doubt that they'll immediately go to war with the Netherlands over this.

I think there'd be changes way, way, before Bismarck even comes to power.

Holland will almost certainly be tied to the Zollverain, for instance.

Ran Exilis said:

...but we have to keep in mind here that the whole separation of Belgium had its reasons, and most of there reasons were the result of the reign of the autocratic king William I.

I'll have to brush up on my knowledge about the Dutch political developments of this period, but nonetheless I'd say that if king William I had ruled differently (i.e. less autocratic and more willing to listen to the people and the aristocracy), then the whole separation of Belgium might have been avoided alltogether, or it may just not have gained the momentum it gained in OTL.

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Hmm. The Breakup of a state encompassing German territory as well may be more significant than that of The Benlux alone.

Thoughts?

The Prussians would defenitely not have liked losing the Rhineland to the Netherlands, although I doubt that they'll immediately go to war with the Netherlands over this.

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In this scenario, the Prussians probably get Saxony instead.

Also to make the Prussians accept it I suppose you could say that the Dutch make a nice buffer between France and Germany for when France inevitably gets back to its old tricks.

That’s why the parties at the Congress of Vienna created the Kingdom of The Netherlands. Britain wanted a buffer between them and the “Germans”. The territory of what will became Belgium and Luxembourg was assigned to the kingdom because Britain didn’t want it under influence of France or Prussian. I think if The North border of France remained the same as before the French wars. A Dutch Rhineland might have succeeded because the close relations between the smaller German states and The former Dutch republic.

Faeelin said:

I think there'd be changes way, way, before Bismarck even comes to power.

Holland will almost certainly be tied to the Zollverain, for instance.

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You know, in OTL, it was the original plan of the Prussians during the Vienna Congres to make the Kingdom of the Netherlands part of the German Confederation, and with that, eventually the Zollverein.

This, by the way, offers another interesting scenario:
what if the Kingdom of the Netherlands had become part of the German Confederation and the Zollverein?

Faeelin said:

Hmm. The Breakup of a state encompassing German territory as well may be more significant than that of The Benlux alone.

Thoughts?

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If the Germans in the Netherlands begin to take part in the Belgian Revolution, either on the side of the Walloons and their French allies, or as an independence movement, it is almost certain that the Prussians would interfere, since the Rhineland still borders West Prussia, and the Prussians would certainly seek to extend their influence in any breakaway part of the Netherlands, especially if its a largely German part.

...and the Prussians would certainly never allow the whole southern half of the Netherlands to break away and become a French satellite state.

But I suppose that in this scenario, the French and German speaking breakaway parts of the Netherlands would just become independant countries, and that the whole issue between France and Prussia would be solved through diplomacy.

..
However, if we're talking about the scenario in which the Kingdom of the Netherlands has gained the Rhineland, yet becomes part of the German Confederation during the Vienna Congres, then any Belgian Revolution could take a whole different turn.

The main reason for that, is that the revolt instigated by the Walloon aristocracy and the Walloon citizens in the southern Netherlands would undoubtly receive French support, but French (militairy) interference in this revolution would not just be French interference in the affairs of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, but it would be French interference in the affairs of the German Confederacy...

...and I'm quite sure that king William I would then do everything in his power to make this issue a concern of the German Confederation and gain militairy support from the other German states, and especially Prussia.

And in that way, this could become a conflict between France and the German states.

I suppose that if this would happen, we would see a short conflict - perhaps a small war - between Walloons with their French allies and some Flemish supporters againest the Dutch royal forces with their Prussian allies, which I think would propably lead to a Dutch-Prussian victory because the French will at some point decide to play it safe and not risk an all out war with Prussia, so the French will withdraw their forces from Dutch territory, leaving the revolutionairies to be crushed by the Dutch and Prussian forces.

The results of that conflict would propably be a greater German (especially Prussian) influence in the Kingdom of the Netherlands, while the relations between the French and the German Confederation would propably become a bit more tense for a while.

If the Netherlands then remain part of the German Confederation (which is quite likely at this point) then, during the process of the German unification, this particular incident could be used by Bismarck as (yet another) argument to make the German states gang up upon France and go to war.

And assuming that this alternate French-German War would be end in a German victory just like it did in OTL, the German unification would lead to the creation of a new German Empire that includes the Kingdom of the Netherlands, which would greatly affect the future of Europe and propably other parts of the world as well.

...and there's one interesting development that stands out in such a scenario: unlike any of the German states, the Netherlands have colonies...

It would be very interesting to see how this would affect the already existing Dutch colonies (especially the Dutch East Indies), as well as German colonialism...

My guess is that the Dutch colonies would become governed by the central Imperial government, but that the Dutch would still remain heavily involved with the colonies and the empire's colonialism, and that das Reich would build a fleet of truly monstrous proportions to intimidate rivals (like the British), and secure its own colonial empire.

The German Empire would propably claim some more colonies as well, and propably pretty much the colonies it possessed in OTL, along with the area of OTL Belgian Congo, which is left unclaimed in this scenario because the Belgian king Leopold II has been butterflied away here.

Faeelin said:

In this scenario, the Prussians probably get Saxony instead.

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Well, as long as the Prussians feel its a fair deal, I suppose they wouldn't really object.

Ran Exilis said:

...and there's one interesting development that stands out in such a scenario: unlike any of the German states, the Netherlands have colonies...

It would be very interesting to see how this would affect the already existing Dutch colonies (especially the Dutch East Indies), as well as German colonialism...

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With the Cape colony lost due too the alignment with France, the only colony of importance was the Dutch East Indies, those are islands so no Territories which could be attacked easily in the area. And as mentioned above the colony in Africa was lost, it wouldn’t create a major advance for the German states.

Ran Exilis said:

This, by the way, offers another interesting scenario:
what if the Kingdom of the Netherlands had become part of the German Confederation and the Zollverein?

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Hmmm. Seeing as the Dutch are pretty much Germans, just with a different dialect, I suppose it's a reasonable idea. An even greater spin-off question would be: What if the Netherlands became a kingdom within the German Empire?

Hapsburg said:

Hmmm. Seeing as the Dutch are pretty much Germans, just with a different dialect, I suppose it's a reasonable idea. An even greater spin-off question would be: What if the Netherlands became a kingdom within the German Empire?

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That was pretty much the scenario I created afterwards.

The general result was an even more powerful German Empire, with an even greater fleet.

...and that, like I said before, also creates an interesting perspective concerning the Dutch colonies.

Mark AH said:

With the Cape colony lost due too the alignment with France, the only colony of importance was the Dutch East Indies, those are islands so no Territories which could be attacked easily in the area. And as mentioned above the colony in Africa was lost, it wouldn’t create a major advance for the German states.

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That depends on wether the colonies choose to become separate states (which would be the more likely scenario if the Netherlands were forced to join the German Confederation), or wether they join the German Confederation and later the German Empire (which would be the more likely scenario if the Kingdom of the Netherlands joined the Confederation voluntarily)

The scenario that I described in my previous post was one in which the Dutch colonies joined the German Confederation along with the Kingdom of the Netherlands, and later get absorbed into the German Empire (though they might retain some form of semi-independance).

I then figured that the German Empire would still want to gain some colonies, but because the only state within the German Empire that has any experience with colonialism is the Kingdom of the Netherlands, my guess was that the Germans would then simply leave maintaining the existing colonies to the Dutch, while also employing the Dutch to create new colonies.

The general idea is that with Dutch support, German colonialism may just have taken off a few decades earlier.

And at that time, there were still several territories left to claim, such as Congo, Cameroon, Togo, Tanzania, parts of New Guinea,
and a number of smaller islands, so building a colonial empire would still have been possible...

Ran Exilis said:

That depends on wether the colonies choose to become separate states (which would be the more likely scenario if the Netherlands were forced to join the German Confederation), or wether they join the German Confederation and later the German Empire (which would be the more likely scenario if the Kingdom of the Netherlands joined the Confederation voluntarily)

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With the Dutch lobby at the congress of Vienna in mind it’s very hard to imagine that the Dutch at that time would join a German state voluntary, the opposite is what the Dutch wanted.

Ran Exilis said:

I then figured that the German Empire would still want to gain some colonies, but because the only state within the German Empire that has any experience with colonialism is the Kingdom of the Netherlands, my guess was that the Germans would then simply leave maintaining the existing colonies to the Dutch, while also employing the Dutch to create new colonies.)

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This would be a very strong point of your suggested empire, because the Dutch are at their best abroad and the German states are real European mainland countries, in the meaning of a strong influence in that area.
The general idea is that with Dutch support, German colonialism may just have taken off a few decades earlier.

Ran Exilis said:

And at that time, there were still several territories left to claim, such as Congo, Cameroon, Togo, Tanzania, parts of New Guinea,
and a number of smaller islands, so building a colonial empire would still have been possible...

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So almost the real world, only Congo is the major difference.

Hapsburg said:

Hmmm. Seeing as the Dutch are pretty much Germans, just with a different dialect,

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This notion never ceases to amuse

Lord Sander,

Yup.
Dutch is more like English then modern German IMO.

Leej said:

Yup.
Dutch is more like English then modern German IMO.

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I disagree with that. At high school I had to learn both English as wel as German as a native Dutch speaker. One of the reasons i still have a lot of trouble with German (except for the fact that i am terrible at learning languages) is that it is so close to Dutch.It makes it easier to understand but harder to speak. If I speak German it is more Dutch with a german accent than it is German. Because English differs more from Dutch, I have less trouble with it.
As for Dutch being a German dialect, that is sort of true. You just have to draw the line between languages anywhere, but if Dutch is a German dialect than Swedish and Norwegian are Danish dialects and French and Italian Latin dialects.

Talking about language, if the Netherlands would become part of a German nation (wich i doubt) would the language still be High German (Hochdeutsch) like it is now or would it be low German, like Dutch and the northern German dialect?

Dutch is more similar to German than English (I can read Dutch and vaguely understand it), but you still shouldn't tell the Dutch they were really German.

The Rhinelanders were msotly Catholic, so they could join the rebellion. Rhenish republic?

In DoD, the Rhineland becomes Dutch too.

pompejus said:

I disagree with that. At high school I had to learn both English as wel as German as a native Dutch speaker. One of the reasons i still have a lot of trouble with German (except for the fact that i am terrible at learning languages) is that it is so close to Dutch.It makes it easier to understand but harder to speak. If I speak German it is more Dutch with a german accent than it is German. Because English differs more from Dutch, I have less trouble with it.
As for Dutch being a German dialect, that is sort of true. You just have to draw the line between languages anywhere, but if Dutch is a German dialect than Swedish and Norwegian are Danish dialects and French and Italian Latin dialects.

Talking about language, if the Netherlands would become part of a German nation (wich i doubt) would the language still be High German (Hochdeutsch) like it is now or would it be low German, like Dutch and the northern German dialect?

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You're the expert I guess. I'm just reading into Dutch now as I'm thinking of going to uni in Amsterdam later in the year and it seems very English-like when put next to German. The Germans had some vowel shift thing and we didn't.
Dialects-
Well the Scandinavian ones sort of are..
As are the Romance languages of latin- the Spanish-Italian relationship is the most interesting one there though.

Max Sinister said:

Dutch is more similar to German than English (I can read Dutch and vaguely understand it), but you still shouldn't tell the Dutch they were really German.

The Rhinelanders were msotly Catholic, so they could join the rebellion. Rhenish republic?

In DoD, the Rhineland becomes Dutch too.

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Well, IIRC, the religious issues weren't so strong anymore during the time of the Kingdom of the Netherlands (though I admit that they still played some role in these developments), and keep in mind that large parts that remained Dutch (mainly Limburg and northern Brabant, along with some parts of Holland) were also very Catholic.

In the Belgian Revolution, the religious element was more of a coincident than a real cause; this revolution was more of a social revolution, started by the Walloon citizenry and aristocracy, and the revolution was more anti-Dutch than anti-Protestant. (after this revolution, Dutch was forbidden in Belgian schools, IIRC even in Flemish districts)

...and anything like a Rhenish republic is most propably only going to end up being absorbed by either Prussia or the German Confederation.

Max Sinister said:

but you still shouldn't tell the Dutch they were really German.

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I didn't say they are German. I'm simply saying that they come from almost the same stock as the Germans, and are Germanic in the same sense. They have a somewhat different culture, of course, but by blood, they're very similar to the Germans, and their language is a Low Saxon dialect of German, quite similar to Luxembourgian and Plattdeutsch.

Ran Exilis said:

Well, IIRC, the religious issues weren't so strong anymore during the time of the Kingdom of the Netherlands (though I admit that they still played some role in these developments), and keep in mind that large parts that remained Dutch (mainly Limburg and northern Brabant, along with some parts of Holland) were also very Catholic.

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Those areas were retained for strategic considerations, not so much the wishes of the inhabitants.

Lord Sander,