Portugal in WW2

[Thande]

Inspired by Pompejus' thread. In OTL, when the Japanese invaded the Dutch East Indies, they also occupied Portuguese East Timor. However, Portugal never declared war and simply resumed colonial authority after the war without getting involved. What if Portugal had joined the war against Japan?

Would the Nazis leaned on Portugal, perhaps via Franco's Spain, to stop them acting against their Japanese cobelligerents? After all, every ship the Portuguese send could be one that the Americans could put on the convoys to Europe instead.

[ljofa]

Originally Posted by Thande

Inspired by Pompejus' thread. In OTL, when the Japanese invaded the Dutch East Indies, they also occupied Portuguese East Timor. However, Portugal never declared war and simply resumed colonial authority after the war without getting involved. What if Portugal had joined the war against Japan?

Would the Nazis leaned on Portugal, perhaps via Franco's Spain, to stop them acting against their Japanese cobelligerents? After all, every ship the Portuguese send could be one that the Americans could put on the convoys to Europe instead.

If Portugal join the war against Japan, I think that Germany would indeed lean on them heavily to stay out of the war. Certainly Macau was also invaded by Japan and Salazar wanted to keep as much of the colonial empire together as possible.

What could the Nazi's realistically promise the Portuguese to stay out of the war other than the threat of invasion? It's rumoured that captured Nazi gold was stashed in Portugal and Lisbon was known as a major transit hub for various clandestine activities on neutral turf.

Certainly Franco would have been induced to support a German invasion but I don't see him going for it. With the tide going against Germany, he'd have been swept up in the inevitable liberation of Europe and the memories of the civil war were too fresh - the socialist losers would have enjoyed the chance to get some revenge.

[Thande]

No idea how plausible it is but I have a romantic image of a second Peninsular War, with Portugal breaking ranks over this issue and then the Allies funnelling troops in there in order to regain a foothold in Europe, fighting the Wehrmacht across Spain...

[Iñaki]

Originally posted by Thande
No idea how plausible it is but I have a romantic image of a second Peninsular War, with Portugal breaking ranks over this issue and then the Allies funnelling troops in there in order to regain a foothold in Europe, fighting the Wehrmacht across Spain...

Although a less romantic idea but probably could be with more probabilities of happen (although I don´t discart the possibility of the other possible paths to a Portugal entry in the war) is that Portugal only declares the war to Japan (at least while the Allies could not get have a foothold in France), in OTL such procedures was not exceptional: for example the Soviet Union only was at war with Germany and not declares the war against Japan until august 1945, Bulgaria declared the war to the Western Allies in 14 december 1941 but in any moment declared the war against the Soviet Union along the World War II (so in fact Bulgaria was neutral in the German war against Soviet Union).

This way would permit to Portugal to elude a possible german action against them and probably the germans with the problems in the Soviet Union and the fact that the japanese not declared the war against the Soviet Union could decide to not enter the war against Portugal at least until Portugal not makes direct actions against Germany.

[Tocomocho]

It sounds weird, but Franco though to declare war on Japan after the Manila massacre in 1941. Obviusly, the total lack of resources or bases along the way the Philippines, the navy sunk and the country destroyed by the civil war with active guerrillas in half of the country prevented it. There was also a clear note from the US that they would not support, nor recognize, nor even permit any Spanish action related to the Archipielago.

However, Portugal had not any similar problem at that time. All that you need is a great massacre of Portuguese citizens on Timor or Macau (If I remember correctly this city wasn't even occupied by the Japanese during the war in OTL). I don't think that Hitler would declare war if Salazar doesn't start to clearly cooperate with the British.

[stodge]

Salazar had to walk a very difficult line in WW2. Had he taken the side of the Axis, the British would undoubtedly have seized the Azores, Cape Verde, Goa and possibly the Portugese colonies in Africa such as Mozambique and Angola.

It might make an interesting TL to consider how these colonies might have developed under British rather than Portugese control in the 1960s and 1970s.

The alternative is to have Salazar and Portugal side with the Allies. This would have shattered the Iberian Neutrality Pact and would conceivably have brought Franco's Spain into the war on the side of the Axis with the prospect of a completely new theatre opening in Iberia.

One possibility is having Salazar join with the allies in 1943 and then Franco joining with the allies as well in 1944 on the basis that Franco could see that it would be better to be in with the winners rather than backing the losers. Instead of a landing at Toulon, American forces can move into France through Spain. I doubt whether the Germans in 1944 would have had the will or the means to pursue an active campaign against Iberia and especially so after D-Day.

Let's roll this forward slightly...with Spanish aid, southern France is rapidly liberated. After the war, Spain is invited to join NATO as is Portugal in 1949. By the early 70s, both Franco and Salazar are persuaded by American political pressure and economic aid to stand down and both countries begin a peaceful transition to democracy. Juan Carlos becomes King of Spain and Duarte Nuno returns briefly to Portugal as king.

[TimeStorm]

Originally Posted by stodge

Salazar had to walk a very difficult line in WW2. Had he taken the side of the Axis, the British would undoubtedly have seized the Azores, Cape Verde, Goa and possibly the Portugese colonies in Africa such as Mozambique and Angola.

The Azores was one of the key reasons of why Portugal didn't joined the war. Salazar planned with the British in case of German invasion, that Azores would be the center of the Portuguese government. Roosevelt and Churchill also planned the invasion of the Azores, but it wasn't need due the alliance Portugal has with England since 1373 (the oldest alliance in the world, still valid today).

[TimeStorm]

Originally Posted by stodge

Let's roll this forward slightly...with Spanish aid, southern France is rapidly liberated. After the war, Spain is invited to join NATO as is Portugal in 1949. By the early 70s, both Franco and Salazar are persuaded by American political pressure and economic aid to stand down and both countries begin a peaceful transition to democracy. Juan Carlos becomes King of Spain and Duarte Nuno returns briefly to Portugal as king.

Portugal is a charter member of NATO (1945). Salazar was pressured in the OTL during the earlier 50s, he did convoked "free" elections where he "won". But the communists were the enemy by the time, so everyone ignored what happened in Portugal.

[Melvin Loh]

Well, Portugal at the war's very end DID allow the Allies the use of the Azores as a naval and air base. btw, Lisbon in late 1941/early 42 was in the process of dispatching colonial forces of a couple bsn strength IIRC from Mozambique to reinforce Timor, but that didn't eventuate. Is there any way that the Portuguese in Dili could've been more pro-allied too, so's they would've officially co-operated with the Dutch and Australians just as OTL the CRIADOs from East Timor's civ pop willingly risked btheir own lives to support the Aussie commandos in 1942-43 ?

[Max Sinister]

I'm wondering why the British-Portuguese alliance ("oldest of the world") didn't have more of an impact in WW2.

[Thande]

Originally Posted by Max Sinister

I'm wondering why the British-Portuguese alliance ("oldest of the world") didn't have more of an impact in WW2.

Well, the Anglo-Portuguese Alliance is much like the Anglo-French Mutual Hatred - it is always there in theory, but that doesn't mean we're always at war with France, any more than we're always allied with Portugal.

Really, it's more a case of just happening to never have been in the situation where we'd at be at war with Portugal, and so the various short periods in which we actually did fight on their side are separated by long periods of nothing, but not hostility either.

[Wendell]

Originally Posted by Thande

Well, the Anglo-Portuguese Alliance is much like the Anglo-French Mutual Hatred - it is always there in theory, but that doesn't mean we're always at war with France, any more than we're always allied with Portugal.

Really, it's more a case of just happening to never have been in the situation where we'd at be at war with Portugal, and so the various short periods in which we actually did fight on their side are separated by long periods of nothing, but not hostility either.

I wonder if part of it also has to do with World War I. For its efforts, Portugal gained a small piece of German East Africa south of the Ruvuma River.