Adm Santa Cruz survives to lead the Armada

Spain's premier naval strategist in the 1580s, Adm Santa Cruz (don't recmember his exact title), was responsible for planning and organising the Great Armada, but died suddenly in 1587 IIRC before seeing his grand adventure come to fruition. In his place, King Philip appointed the Duke of Medina Siddonia, a total naval incompetent who'd never been to sea before the Armada campaign, thereby contributing to Spain's humbling in 1588.

WI Santa Cruz actually lives ? Could his leadership of the Spanish fleet in 1588 have overcome the audacity of Drake, Frobisher, Effingham and the other English sea dogs and facilitated a successful Spanish invasion of England ?

Melvin Loh said:

Spain's premier naval strategist in the 1580s, Adm Santa Cruz (don't recmember his exact title), was responsible for planning and organising the Great Armada, but died suddenly in 1587 IIRC before seeing his grand adventure come to fruition. In his place, King Philip appointed the Duke of Medina Siddonia, a total naval incompetent who'd never been to sea before the Armada campaign, thereby contributing to Spain's humbling in 1588.

WI Santa Cruz actually lives ? Could his leadership of the Spanish fleet in 1588 have overcome the audacity of Drake, Frobisher, Effingham and the other English sea dogs and facilitated a successful Spanish invasion of England ?

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Both Parma and Santa Cruz advised Philip that his plan for invading England was unworkable, because it required that a myriad of uncontrollable variables work out perfectly in order to effect a rendezvous between Santa Cruz's Armada and the Army of Flanders. The Armada was to transport the army across the Channel to England, and then back them up as they secured their position for a march on London.


Parma's army would not be able to come out into the Channel to rendezvous with the Armada, and the Armada could not get close enough to escort the army through the blockade of English and Dutch warships. Furthermore, Channel waters were treacherous, and the Armada would have no friendly harbor in case of trouble.


But Philip was convinced that God would arrange good weather and adjust other circumstances to ensure Spain's success in this "holy war." When Santa Cruz died early in 1588, command of the Armada fell to the Duke of Medina Sidonia, who accomplished the Herculean task of organizing and refitting a fleet that had been allowed to degenerate into chaos. Crews and stores had to be replenished, repairs made, and a feasible battle plan worked out.

http://www.salvoblue.homestead.com/armada.html

So, neither Santa Cruz as navy commander nor Parma as army commander actually thought the plan would work. Might he not have been WORSE than his successor because of this belief ? Its a vague possibility

Grey Wolf

Interesting

http://www.louisville.edu/~jespiv01/spain2.html

It would seem the Armada plan as actually carried out was a compromise between rival plans of Santa Cruz on the one hand and Parma on the other. The blended plan did not win favour with either of them

However,

http://vamos-wentworth.org/seadog/seadog.php?menu=people&subject=bazan

seems to show Santa Cruz as a master of improvisation. Therefore, one could say that he would not commit the gross tactical blunder of Calais. But what he would actually ACHIEVE instead I am not sure ? Maybe gets his fleet further on ? Maybe gets them back down the Channel to try again later ?

Grey Wolf

Or perhaps he'd do the only way the plan could have worked, which was be puting the troops on in spain and sailing directly for england.

Chris said:

Or perhaps he'd do the only way the plan could have worked, which was be puting the troops on in spain and sailing directly for england.

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Well, that was HIS plan, but Philip over-ruled it and said he had to work with Parma, and Santa Cruz went along with that because as a servant of the king he had to. I don't see him changing the king's mind (Philip was too worried about the Turks in the Med to accept his plan in the first place) and certainly not going against his king's wishes in any way

Grey Wolf

I have a beautiful and rather old volume on the Spanish Armadillo( ), The Armada by Garrett Mattingly, copyright 1959. Goes into some detail as to why the Armada was doomed from the start, but is especially lovely because it looks at the big picture of what else was happening in Western Europe at the time.

The treason of two English Catholic commanders in Holland in 1587.

The shattering defeat of a major Catholic force in SW France by Henry of Navarre.

The near-disintegration of France in 1587-1588. If not for the last of the Bourbons and the decision by Henry of Navarre that 'Paris was worth a mass' it seems that France would not have survived the century.

The reasons the Pope might have preferred Elizabeth to Philip, but had no real choice in the matter.

But the best examination of all is why the Armada failed, as well as the behavior of the major officers involved.

See how Sir Francis Drake won praise and loot for behavior that would get a modern officer courtmartialed.

Why Medina-Sidonia was not the bad commander so often suggested, and the evidence that he went out of his way to seek battle while the English sensibly refused to yield their advantages.

Why the Duke of Parma was totally unprepared for the invasion, and the reasons he was disgusted that he had to even consider taking part in it.

How a Spanish grandee who surrendered a 'ship of the line' without a struggle, and whose behavior(along with that of his crew) called into serious question Spanish courage and seamanship, yet somehow became a minor hero praised in Spain AND in England.

What was Philip intending to do if he won ? I am having a bit of difficulty finding this out. I was planning my own little timeline but...

For instance, once Elizabeth is removed who is monarch ?

Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf said:

What was Philip intending to do if he won ? I am having a bit of difficulty finding this out. I was planning my own little timeline but...

For instance, once Elizabeth is removed who is monarch ?

Grey Wolf

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I suppose the Tudors' heirs would be given the throne, as they were the closest thing to a surviving Catholic royal family of England, there's really no other option.

Mary was executed the year before the Armada, perhaps because Elizabeth feared Philip's plans

James VI of Scotland was IIRC a Protestant, and had been rather under Elizabeth's thumb since the English invasion of Scotland in the ?1560s ? He doesn't FEEL right as the candidate

Grey Wolf

I suppose he planned to put his daughter, but this couldn't be neither accepted nor liked but the English. Perhaps if the Tercios landed in the South of England and were ready to march to London, he just could have obliged Elizabeth to negotiate a peace and stop helping the Dutch rebels, to end persecuting Catholicism, to end her attacks against the Spanish colonies. Would Elizabeth had to agree or to face the Spanish army -with the danger of a Catholic rebellion or being stabbed in the back by some Noblemen-? I doubt very much whether Elizabeth and Cecil would have negotiated with the Spanish.

Some problems with the Armada that even Santa Cruz couldn't have solved:

It's not a question of IF the Spanish had defeated the English ships...they never even tried. Spanish galleons were obsolete designs used as floating castles rather than true warships.

In addition, Spanish seamanship was inadequate to navigate back up the English Channel against the prevailing wind.

Thirdly...the Spanish land force was in the wrong place (even if it wasn't late) to embark.

Fourthly, the impressive Spanish army wouldn't be that impressive after making their way ashore over open beaches with the samll English ships attcking them.

And, as a friend of mine wrote once:

"Essentially the English Channel is a bitch of body of water to cross"

Kurt_Steiner said:

Fourthly, the impressive Spanish army wouldn't be that impressive after making their way ashore over open beaches with the samll English ships attcking them.

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I once heard that a spanish infantry force crossed one strait of something like a mile to invade a dutch island in the XVI century. They were attacked by dutch ships but they managed to arrive and assault the Island. I'm looking for more details...

Spanish Armada..

A successful Spanish invasion of 1588 was the outcome following the assassination of Elizabeth I in one of the greatest AH books of all times "Pavane".

I think that had there been no English naval defence, the "Enterprise of England" had a good chance of success. The army of the Duke of Parma was arguably the best in Europe at that time and would, I believe, have brushed aside any English rearguard around London.

As in 1066, the death and collapse of central authority would probably have caused a general surrender to the Spanish Army. As for what happened next, I suspect Philip would have made himself ruler of England. Whether Spanish or Catholic rule in England would have continued indefinitely is harder to assess. There is plenty of evidence that given the decline of Spanish power elsewhere in Europe, Spanish control of England could not have survived. Perhaps at some point in the 1630s, Spanish rule ends and Charles Stuart becomes king or perhaps England falls under French control as part of Louis XIV's rule.

1595 Spanish raid on Penzance

Guys you all seem to know a heck of alot more than I do on the Armada and Santa Cruz. What about the successful 1595 Spanish raid on Penzance and surrounding West Country towns ? Could such attacks have been followed up more systematically by the Spaniards in order to avenge the embarassment of the Armada fiasco ?