We've all sent the pictures of Heron's steam engine. What if he had realized the implications of his discovery, and the steam engine had been invented in the first century instead of centuries later?
Heron invents the steam engine
- Thread starter Hobelhouse
- Start date
HelloLegend
Banned
They say if the Library of Alexandria hadn't burned down, we would have lunar colonies by the year 1800.
David S Poepoe
Banned
Unsubstantiated. The statement is entirely out of Alternative History if you really think about it. There is also the possibility that we would have nuke ourselves into oblivion by 1670 (or there abouts). The Library, and Museum, burned down a number of times from what I've heard.
1800? That even sounds a bit late. Inventing the steam engine would have the potential to jump-start the Industrial Revolution. Or, at least, an Industrial revolution. The iron-making techniques needed are not around yet, but the Empire has near all the raw materials, and primitive steam engines are obviously capable. Iron making techniques are bound to improve if the steam engine comes into widespread use. Perhaps Heron decides to hook his new invention up to a boat and see what happens? Heron's model seems like it could power a small paddlewheel apparatus with minimal modifications. This would provide a demonstration of what steam power can do, and other innovators might follow suit.
It wouldn't start the industrial revolution.
The industrial revolution mostly came about as a result of social and economic pressures which led to the development of technology, not the other way around.
Could have some interesting effects if it became widely known but not a early industrial revolution (well not THAT early).
The industrial revolution mostly came about as a result of social and economic pressures which led to the development of technology, not the other way around.
Could have some interesting effects if it became widely known but not a early industrial revolution (well not THAT early).
I wonder if the early use of steam power could hasten the development of the social and economic develops needed to support both an industrial revolution and an industrialized society. I doubt that we would see a Manchester on the Tiber anytime soon, but within a hundred years or three who can say. Steam powered paddled boats could lead to an early revolution in oceanic trade. With the preservation of international trade new ideas can jump around more easily and in turn bring about new innovations. A larger merchant elite would require the presence of skilled and educated individuals who could become the natural basis for a middle class. The Merchant elite could eventually gather the financial, and political clout to topple the influence of the big landowners and hopefully bring about some well needed social reforms in the process.
NapoleonXIV
Banned
The main problem, though I don't see all its ramifications myself, is slavery, according to many historians. I also see there being a problem with freedom, but that may be just me and totally ahistorical.
Why should you put lots of time and talent into making things easier for slaves? Who needs labor-saving devices when you have a labor surplus? Augustus was reportedly shown a device for pulling back the awning on the Coliseum and rejected it. "..what will I do with my sailors?.." (sailors were the ones employed to run it, as it was like a large sail.)
The Romans, at least, pretty much disdained becoming research scholars and teachers, they had slaves for that.
There is a boat they recovered from a wreck pretty much intact some years ago. The startling thing they noticed is that the boards were shaped and fitted together BEFORE the skeleton was put in. The increased strength to this backward way of doing things was only marginal, why would they employ such an inefficient method when the better one was obvious in the ship's very structure?
The answer given was slavery. Who cared about the slave's time and trouble? not even the slave usually, who might be innovating himself out of home and hearth.
I'm not sure I agree with that totally. Were I a shipbuilder I would want my slaves to be efficient, but I can see the reasoning behind it, particularly when we are talking about things like the Steam Engine which are several steps away from being of any real use when first invented.
Maybe you should have the Romans make deep mines, and have to pump water out. IIRC what made the Steam Engine popular was that it could do this, and it was impossible before, not just difficult.
In time of Augustus when Romans stopped expanding they felt some trouble since main source of slaves was wars. Due to aggressive wars economy become dependent upon cheap slaves.
This technology was invented in Greece and used to build galleys but not merchant ships. This method had some advances against "right" way (it was more fitted for mass production and gave some gain in the weight of galley)
First steam engines were coal hungry and so were mostly used in coal mines.
Faeelin
Banned
Cite? I've never heard this before, although I've heard about variations so many times I suspect it's a myth.
But it's not like the Empire consisted only of Romans. The Roman Empire was the same time that men like Galen were researching medicine, which suggests that something's not quite right.
An excellent example is the spread of canals and stagecoaches (with well-built coach roads) in 18th century England. To paraphrase an old National Lampoon, both were crude attempts by pre-industrial people to build a railroad. Putting it another way, the English economy was producing enormous demand for improved transport. (The mining industry was also prompting the development of horsedrawn railways.)
The demand for transport made the railroad worth inventing, so to speak. If someone had built a railroad in classical times, it probably would have gone broke because there just wasn't the traffic demand.
Also, Hero's steam engine would have required enormous development - really, a complete redesign - to perform any useful work. In contrast, even the primitive Newcomen engine was useful for pumping out mines, providing the incentive for Watt's improvements.
-- Rick
The ancient method of shipbuilding (which was used for sailing ships as well as galleys) was actually very strong. It is essentially the principle of semi-monocoque construction used for building aircraft, though its advantage decreases for large ships. However, your broader point is still valid, because this type of construction was very labor-intensive, affordable only if labor is cheap - and slavery tends to hold down wages even of free workers. (Which is why slavery in the territories was such an explosive issue in the US.)
It was also very wasteful of lumber, and both rising real wages and scarcity of timber may have driven the shift in ship construction to plank on frame. This took place in the Mediterranean around 500-1100. Northern Europe had a different shipbuild tradition, clinker-building, which only gave way to plank on frame carvel building in the 15th century (and is still used for small boats).
-- Rick
The main reason the industrial revolution really took off, was due to the agricultural rev. which happened 15 years earlier, it'd created bigger crops, more crops, and uusing less people. The cornerstones of the idustrial rev. were already being laid. Basically if an industrial rev were to occur in classical times, they need to get the metal plow from the serbs sooner, and understand crop rotations, and discover clover and, and.... well you get the idea. Plus the Roman education/social training programs weren't geared for mechanincs. Now training beauracrats, and philosophers, and merchants, best in the world. The only Greco-Roman civs that could pull off a pre 1700 industrial rev. would be the Romanoi. (Byzantines) They had Greek technical acumen and creativity, with Roman practicality, and engineering. the only problem is they were a little caught up in religion and such. They had steam engines, but they were used to open doors, and raise thrones to awe visitors. (Justinian Is throne).
C
C
NapoleonXIV
Banned
As usual, I am wrong, but only in details this time. The exact quote was "I must feed my poor" and it was by Vespasian and it was in reference to an inventor who had plans for a hoisting machine. The sentence after is; "In this moratorium on invention Vespasian recognized the problem of technological unemployment+, and decided against an industrial revolution" Pg 288 of Caesar and Christ by Will Durant, The Story of Civilization part III Simon and Schuster NY 1944
The Romans operated treadmills in the Welsh goldmines using human or animal power to turn the wheels. Unless the cost of steam power could be reduced to that of slaves I doubt it would have ever been used especailly as slaves were considered as a cheap disposable resource. Also, a slave operating a treadmill requires little or no education - one to maintain a steam engine, however, would be expensive.
Faeelin
Banned
A few problems I see:
1) Vespasian, as a government official, chose to do so.
(And didn't he reward the guy anyway?)
This is like saying steamships would never be used because the Royal Navy preferred sailing vessels.
2) The price of slaves varied; in the late republic they were cheap; as conquests ended, not so much.
Hmm, I must confess my ignorance of Roman history. Were galleys usually rowed by slaves?
While I don't see widespread use of steam, I don't see why the ancients couldn't use it for bellows and pumps. It would've take some time, but I think they might have made this leap. I don't see factorys and any kind of short term blow up, like in Europe ala 1800's, but its not to much of a stretch IMO, if things go right (actually, if things go perfectly), that it speeds things up by 3 or 4 hundred years.
Some form of Proto-Luddite rebellion wouldn't surprise me though.
Not only is there an enormous amount of slave labor, Rome had vast quantities of permanently unemployed urban poor to contend with. Honestly inorder to get the social development needed for a true industrialization you would need to permanently destroy the power of the large estates.
Continuing with this timeline on the slow introduction of steam. If the use of paddle steamships is adopted (ultimately faster and cheaper than supporting the manpower of a trireme) and subsequently used to dramatically expand roman trade with asia, eventually leading to dramatic long running European trade defecits, the value of precious metals (gold and silver) within Europe will remain at a premium. In order to keep up with demand, ambitious mine owners begin to make use of steam engine powered pumps in order restore the productivity of flooded mines...