These Hills Sing of Saxon Kings

[Thermopylae]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

With the French economy, Louis XIV spent all that there was.

One reason why no trade was that rance was self-reliant for the most part on all the basic resources, food, ores, etc...

When LXIV kicked out 95% of the French protestants, he crippled his country. The silk industry left for England, the watch industry left for Switzerland.

The maritime population was also hit bad.

Another reason why the French had no money was the requirement of L.XIV for the maintanence of a 150,000 man army in peacetime, which expanded to 350,000 and more during war. By comparison, the English army was about 5,000 men.

So it basically was the policies of Louis XIV, and the expulsion of the French Protestants (also a policy of Louis XIV or his near ancestor? I get my French monarchs mixed up) is what did France in? I see.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Something that has been bugging me, which wasn't mentioned.

William the Bastard was carrying a standard blessed by the Pope, and had the support of "God" on his side.

If William was defeated, would not the Pope's temporal power and influence be severely weakend? Even the spiritual, as he clearly got God's word mixed up.

It could even give future crusaders pause.

Originally Posted by Thande

I remember someone once suggesting that Harold, still excommunicated by the Pope, might have brought England into the Orthodox Church instead.

I came up with a really good justification that allowed the Pope to keep his authority, and at the same time allowed the Saxon kings to look good. If it isn't in the first update, it's in the planning thread... Let me check the TL...

Edit: Here we are

Originally Posted by Thermopylae

In international waters, the biggest battle Harold had to contend with was the Papacy, who still wouldn’t reconcile him. This battle of wills would continue to persist until 1073, when Pope Alexander II died.

But when Harold threw in his lot with Emperor Henry IV in the Investiture Controversy in 1075, Gregory decided that he best make friends where he could. In exchange for recognizing him as the legitimate Pope, Harold would be reconciled. Harold was given an offer he couldn’t refuse. Or, rather, he didn’t want to.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Thermopylae

So it basically was the policies of Louis XIV, and the expulsion of the French Protestants (also a policy of Louis XIV or his near ancestor? I get my French monarchs mixed up) is what did France in? I see.

It was L. XIV's policy, starting with the revocation of the Edict of Nantes in 1685.

They had a policy of dragonnades, starting in 1681, which was the billeting of very obnoxious and difficult dragoon officers with protestant households, in order to force them to leave.

On January 17th 1686, Louis XIV claimed that out of a Protestant population of 800,000 to 900,000, only 1,000 to 1,500 had remained in France.

[Thermopylae]

Right then. Update Wedensday, gents.

I really like the ideas I have forming in my head. Lots of goodies in this one.

[Cloudy Vortex]

I've spent the last week reading all this. Spectacular! I have a few comments, nitpicks really that just jump out at me. I'll start with the important one.

1) Lithuania has no reason to be Catholic. Jogaila himself had an Orthodox mother from Tver and was promised to a Muscovite princess and Lithuania to Orthodoxy until Moscow got torched by the Golden Horde after a failed bid for independence. Poland threw themselves and young 'King' Jadwiga (Hedwig in Englisc) to Jogaila and that's the only reason Lithuania went Catholic. Even Lithuania's official language was Ruthenian (dialect ancestral to Belarussian.) Delving deeper, the Ruthenes and Novgorodians resisted Muscovy's creation of the Russian Orthodox Church. (Moscow's lifting the Tatar's Yoke was all about replacing it with a Muscovite one.) Whether or not the state church of Lithuania still answers to Constantinople or will continue to do so in the future is up to you. Finally, the Grand Duke of Lithuania controls Kiev and is overlord over Novgorod (which, although a republic, appointed ceremonial grand princes, usually the strongest North Russian prince). As Grand Prince of Kiev and Grand Prince of Novgorod, the Grand Duke, even if he's not a Rurikivitch, has the best fathomable claim to the title Grand Prince of All Rus'. If the Lithuanian Church seperates from Constantinople, instant Tsardom. Either way, Lithuania should be changing it's name soon. Considering what Moscow has directly or inderectly done to the rest of Russia, the rest of East Europe, and the rest of humanity, I'd thoroughly enjoy a Lithuanian Tsar or Grand Prince attempting to assert his authority and Moscow foolishly attempting to assert its independence. :evilgrin:

2) Sultan Abdul? Read this and try again.

3) A long way back to be sure, but incase you make another King Edward, there were 3 pre-Hastings Kings Edward. I saw the Edmund gaff, too. Here's a list of the kings of England from Alfred to Harold, just to remind you.

Alfred the Great
Edward I the Elder (the Edward you forgot and was reminded of)
Ethelstan the Glorious
Edmund I the Magnificent
Edred
Edwy the Fair
Edgar the Peaceable
St. Edward II the Martyr (the Edward you forgot and wasn't reminded of)
Ethelred the Unready
Edmund II Ironside
Sven Forkbeard
Canute I the Great (well the Danes thought he was great)
Harold I Harefoot
Canute II (called Harthacanute by justifiably hostile chroniclers, not his name)
St. Edward III the Confessor
Harold II Godwinson

Just to help you when you put this in the TL forum.

[Thermopylae]

Originally Posted by Cloudy Vortex

I've spent the last week reading all this. Spectacular! I have a few comments, nitpicks really that just jump out at me. I'll start with the important one.

Thank you very much! And I see you have a good bit of knowledge on Lithuania. Good news, we were sort of lacking in those around here...

1) Lithuania has no reason to be Catholic. Jogaila himself had an Orthodox mother from Tver and was promised to a Muscovite princess and Lithuania to Orthodoxy until Moscow got torched by the Golden Horde after a failed bid for independence. Poland threw themselves and young 'King' Jadwiga (Hedwig in Englisc) to Jogaila and that's the only reason Lithuania went Catholic. Even Lithuania's official language was Ruthenian (dialect ancestral to Belarussian.) Delving deeper, the Ruthenes and Novgorodians resisted Muscovy's creation of the Russian Orthodox Church. (Moscow's lifting the Tatar's Yoke was all about replacing it with a Muscovite one.) Whether or not the state church of Lithuania still answers to Constantinople or will continue to do so in the future is up to you. Finally, the Grand Duke of Lithuania controls Kiev and is overlord over Novgorod (which, although a republic, appointed ceremonial grand princes, usually the strongest North Russian prince). As Grand Prince of Kiev and Grand Prince of Novgorod, the Grand Duke, even if he's not a Rurikivitch, has the best fathomable claim to the title Grand Prince of All Rus'. If the Lithuanian Church seperates from Constantinople, instant Tsardom. Either way, Lithuania should be changing it's name soon. Considering what Moscow has directly or inderectly done to the rest of Russia, the rest of East Europe, and the rest of humanity, I'd thoroughly enjoy a Lithuanian Tsar or Grand Prince attempting to assert his authority and Moscow foolishly attempting to assert its independence. :evilgrin:

I see. Ouch. Well good news is that I shouldn't have to be doing too much rewriting, what with Lithuania being Orthodox and all.

Now, I'm interested: the Grand Duke of Lithuania as King of All Rus'? Because he controls Kiev, Novgorod, and everything in-between? Very interesting. I like this idea. And he would have a more or less secure position doing it (would have to contend with decentralized Muscovy and possibly Sweden)

I might just do this.

2) Sultan Abdul? Read this and try again.

Well... nyah!

3) A long way back to be sure, but incase you make another King Edward, there were 3 pre-Hastings Kings Edward. I saw the Edmund gaff, too. Here's a list of the kings of England from Alfred to Harold, just to remind you.

Alfred the Great
Edward I the Elder (the Edward you forgot and was reminded of)
Ethelstan the Glorious
Edmund I the Magnificent
Edred
Edwy the Fair
Edgar the Peaceable
St. Edward II the Martyr (the Edward you forgot and wasn't reminded of)
Ethelred the Unready
Edmund II Ironside
Sven Forkbeard
Canute I the Great (well the Danes thought he was great)
Harold I Harefoot
Canute II (called Harthacanute by justifiably hostile chroniclers, not his name)
St. Edward III the Confessor
Harold II Godwinson

Just to help you when you put this in the TL forum.

A good reference, thank you!

[Cloudy Vortex]

Thanks, but I avoided the term 'king' for a reason. For whatever reason the Slavic cognate for king, 'kniaz' in Russian, became taken as prince or duke. The North Slavic terms for 'king' are taken from the name 'Charles'. Furthermore, the Orthodox Russians regarded that term (I think 'kral' or something like that) as 'Catholic', and Orthodox culture was (and to an extant still is) dominated by an irrational hatred towards Catholics that far exceeds Catholic animosity towards them (which is saying something because Catholics don't tolerate opposing doctrines well either). The Northeastern Russians bear this much more strongly than Southeastern Russians (Ruthenes), perhaps because the Northeasterns learned much from the equally xenophobic and bigoted Serbians, while the Southeasterners learned directly from the more tolerant Greeks. (Don't get me wrong, the Russians and Serbians are good people, but those that are different so freak them out, they make paranoia seem genetic, and an ever shrinking world causes.) Maybe the Grand Prince of Lithuania, Kiev, and Novgorod can stomach being a 'rex'. Danlyo of the Ruthene state of Halych-Volodymyr was called 'rex', but he was an anomoly. The Bulgarian leader meant king when he styled himself tsar, but 'king' had no meaning distinct from 'emperor' in the Mediaval Balkans. Use your best jugdement, but the Church will lean on the grand duke to call himself Kniaz Velikiy until/unless he pulls away from Constantinople, and afterwards they'll want him to be Tsar. If you're going to call him king, mention Danny and come up with another reason to boot. I hope a Lithuanian Russia will be a better Russia, but they'll still be Russia.

[Thermopylae]

Originally Posted by Cloudy Vortex

Thanks, but I avoided the term 'king' for a reason. For whatever reason the Slavic cognate for king, 'kniaz' in Russian, became taken as prince or duke. The North Slavic terms for 'king' are taken from the name 'Charles'. Furthermore, the Orthodox Russians regarded that term (I think 'kral' or something like that) as 'Catholic', and Orthodox culture was (and to an extant still is) dominated by an irrational hatred towards Catholics that far exceeds Catholic animosity towards them (which is saying something because Catholics don't tolerate opposing doctrines well either). The Northeastern Russians bear this much more strongly than Southeastern Russians (Ruthenes), perhaps because the Northeasterns learned much from the equally xenophobic and bigoted Serbians, while the Southeasterners learned directly from the more tolerant Greeks. (Don't get me wrong, the Russians and Serbians are good people, but those that are different so freak them out, they make paranoia seem genetic, and an ever shrinking world causes.) Maybe the Grand Prince of Lithuania, Kiev, and Novgorod can stomach being a 'rex'. Danlyo of the Ruthene state of Halych-Volodymyr was called 'rex', but he was an anomoly. The Bulgarian leader meant king when he styled himself tsar, but 'king' had no meaning distinct from 'emperor' in the Mediaval Balkans. Use your best jugdement, but the Church will lean on the grand duke to call himself Kniaz Velikiy until/unless he pulls away from Constantinople, and afterwards they'll want him to be Tsar. If you're going to call him king, mention Danny and come up with another reason to boot. I hope a Lithuanian Russia will be a better Russia, but they'll still be Russia.

So let me get this straight. Unless he makes his own autocephalous Orthodox Church, he doesn't have the authority (in the church's eyes) to call himself King?

So I'm a little confused. Does the title "Kniaz" carry the same powers with it as a King or a Duke?

[Cloudy Vortex]

Titles mean jack next to reality. The Counts of Barcelona held no royal, princely, or even ducal title, but they were the wealthiest Christian sovereigns in Spain in their heyday. The whole concept of emperor > king > prince/duke is Frankish and does not directly correlate with what's going on outside of Western Europe. The only sovereign called emperor in English today is the Tenno of Japan, and that's not the best translation. Japan is a nation state, not an empire. Juan Carlos, a Castillian monarch ruling over Gallegos, Catalans, and Basques better deserves to be called an emperor (and he reigns over the strongest Catholic monarchy to boot). The confusion comes from earlier times and how the term emperor as super-king should be used. The Ruler of all Rus' is definately a super-king.

As for any confusion over 'kniaz' as a cognant, I meant that kniaz and king came from the same Indo-European root. But when the languages were reconected, kniaz was translated into Latin 'princeps' instead of 'rex' and retranslated into local language from there. (Remember, all diplomacy happen in Latin.) Polish monarchs called themselves 'rex' in Latin. Normal enough. But the Poles held Charlemagne in such awe, the used his name for 'rex' and downgraded their 'kniaz' equivalent to 'princeps'. This usage was spread over to the Russians from there. This caused confusion with the Byzantines, who didn't distinguish between 'rex' and 'imperator', both were 'basileus', or 'tsar' in Slavonic. Sovereigns who weren't the lead monarch of a church were styled 'princeps' (whenever the Byzantines used Latin, which was only when dealing with Catholics). Pyotr Velikiy, as thoughtful as he was cruel, noticed the potention confusion over 'tsar' (he needn't have bothered, the Germans translated it as 'kaiser', and everyone else got 'emperor' from that). He upgraded his title to 'imperator', an new Russian word direct from Latin. After that, 'tsar' was a colloqialism; the official title was imperator. So here we have it: imperator > tsar >= kral (only used to discribe Catholic or Protestant monarchs, non-Christian sovereigns were called tsars) > kniaz velikiy > kniaz.

Fun yet?

[Thermopylae]

Well gents, it's two days late, and it only goes to 1801, but it's actually quite lengthy (almost seven pages in Word) and chock-full of good stuff.

I'm getting an insane case of writer's block, here, guys. It's difficult to put myself in the mindset of this world. So much of the 19th century was shaped by the American, Latin American, and French revolutions, and in their absence I'm having a hard time getting much further.

Which is why I'm very glad I have you guys. Your insights will surely help me in driving this TL to 2007.

Until then, here's the update:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1754 AD - The coronation of King Wilhelm I van Brugge of England, Scotland, and Ireland. This period is often referred to as the Wilhelmine Period. Admittedly, the Witenagemot was very suspicious of this “Flemish King” at first. He was young, and foreign. The first of a non-Saxon line to rule over England. The Saxon Englisc were proud of their history of home-grown kings, and were nervous that they were effectively in uncharted territory.

Wilhelm proved himself capable in his first of many years as king. His father was a Chancellor in the King’s court in Flanders, and naturally Wilhelm had become a bit of a money manager himself. The most important thins about this was that Wilhelm’s father had been able to convince that all of the money in Flanders ought be managed by a single bank. Thus the Bank of Flanders had been created. Edmund VI was quite interested in taking this idea national, however he died before he was able to do so.

Wilhelm was able to rally just enough political support to get the proposal through, and the Bank of England was created. This had a major effect on the economy. Not only was it more manageable, but it allowed deficit spending to be much easier.

This would come in much handy during his reign. War was looming on the horizon. And it would come from the least likely of sources.

1755 AD - The Union of Portugal and Castile was in its death throes. The loss of the War of the Sicilian Succession had in Castile blackened the name of the dynasty, and in Portugal there were those who wanted any excuse to overthrow the king. But the position in both kingdoms was secure enough, and indeed a crisis in the coming years could possibly have been averted. However, the King and the Castilian court could not seem to restrain themselves when they finally began to take notice of their Californian “territory”.

As it turns out, in 1752 Edmund VI had chartered the “California Company,” as a means of facilitating Pacific transport to the Spice Islands. By 1755, when Catholic missionaries from Mexico had begun arriving en masse to convert the native Californians, they were surprised to find that their English counterparts had already started.

There were no less than two very small settlements in California already established, with every indication that they were going to grow.

And so the King of Portugal and Castile had quite an earful for the English Witenagemot and Wilhelm. He claimed that the “Albertine Line”, made to divide the New World between Castile and England prevented the settlement of California in its entirety (the only exception to this being Florida)

The King of England noted that if this were true, all the colonies south of the Chesapeake Bay would be technically Spanish (due to the poor means of delineating longitude back when the line was drawn). The King of Portugal-Castile really at this point had no leg to stand on, except that historical precedent had dictated that California was indeed a Spanish territory. Wilhelm didn’t buy it, and neither did the Witenagemot.

1756 - 1759 AD - The Anglo-Iberian War. It was an easy fought war. The near-bankrupt Portuguese and Castilian states simply could not sufficiently defend her own colonies. England however was on the economic upswing, and was able to score victory after victory over the Portuguese and Castilians. The great Admiral Cynebald’s victory at Manila secured the St. Vincent Isles (OTL Philippines). The constant raids on the African coastlines severely disrupted the slave trade (or, rather, redirecting it to the English colonies), which by this point in the war was the last (relatively) secure source of income for the two countries.

The final straw had come in 1759, when Lisbon was raided a second time, and the king was apparently killed attempting to flee the city (he was already an elderly man, and many historians speculate that he wasn’t killed by debris falling from a building hit by a cannon, but rather by a heart attack). Broken, battered, and without a king, Portugal and Castile sued for peace. The terms were quite generous. The St. Vincent Isles were to be handed over, and the Albertine line was be replaced with the new “Wilhelmine Line,” which essentially halted further Castilian settlement.

1759 - 1760 AD - The Iberian Succession Crisis. The death of the King meant a few things: One, the nobility, who wanted to be rid of this “Dynasty of Fools,” now had a chance to unseat them. Two, the potential successors now had a chance to push their own claim for the throne. And three, the king of Aragon was now in a position to try and potentially seize the crown of Castile (or at least Navarre) for himself by force.

Given this situation, it did not take long for peace to go on holiday.

There were three major claimants to the throne, these being John, the king’s brother, Antonio, the king’s eldest son, and Carlos, the king’s more well-liked-by-certain-elements-of-society, however younger son.

1760 - 1768 AD - The Peninsular War. It was a multi-sided conflict, fought largely in isolation from the rest of Europe (as few other major houses in Europe could manufacture a sufficient claim to either of the thrones in contest). It started when the Portuguese nobility threw their support behind the Duke of Beja, Teodosio. The three rival claimants were up in arms at this hijacking of their crowns.

It however was not a civil war until the Castilian army generals and influential titleholders decided that they would throw their support behind Juan (João), the second son of the late king. He had spent most of his time in the court in Toledo, and had always been well-liked by that court’s influential members. The only caveat was that a constitution had to be adopted, limiting the king’s powers (much like what was in England). This was an effort to try to curb the absolutism with which the country had been governed previously, a governance which had led to two very disastrous wars.

The late king’s eldest, Alessandro, was infuriated. It was bad enough the crown of Portugal was taken from him, and now even Toledo has turned its back on the dynasty. He needed support, and he found a very, very sympathetic ear in the King of Aragon, Roberto II. Roberto was willing to go to war to help Alessandro, but only to get the crowns of Portugal and Leon (surprisingly). Castile was to be his own. Alessandro didn’t like this one bit, however he was not in much of a position to bargain, and so agreed to the partition.

This left Jose, the late king’s brother, entirely out of the equation. However, he was able to rally enough support from the nobles from both Lisbon and Toledo who did not approve of the choice of king made by the courts in Toledo or Lisbon. He fled to the northwest corner of Spain, and proclaimed himself “King of Leon”.

The war raged on for eight years, and was quite disastrous for the peninsula. It would be referred to retroactively as “The Last War of Crowns,” as it marks the last major dynastic struggle in all Europe. (This is in fact inaccurate, as the Great Northern War too was a struggle for a crown)

The war kicked off with the quick seizing of Navarre from Castile by Roberto, and Portugal and Castile were quite busy fighting each other on their own border. Meanwhile Jose sent sporadic raids in just about every direction, but dealt mainly in fighting Roberto.

The Portuguese and Castilians really were both quite evenly matched, however the Castilians had behind them far superior leadership. And so it was in 1764 that Lisbon had once again fallen to foreign invaders, (namely, Castilians), and King Teodosio beat a hasty retreat to Brazil. Juan had himself crowned as the true king of Portugal shortly after Teodosio left.

By 1765 it was a three-sided war. Jose had entrenched himself in a very large northern kingdom, comprising the areas of Leon, Galicia, and even Portugal as far south as Porto. Roberto had Navarre and all of Aragon, including Valencia. The rest was Juan’s.

Roberto knew that he had the upper hand. Jose was committed to fighting out this conflict to the end, just like Juan. Whereas Roberto could theoretically back off at any time, no harm no foul. Which means that while Juan and Jose were wearing each other out, Roberto could regroup and plan for later on in the war. At least, that’s what he wanted to do. And in fact the plan worked until 1767, when a most unfortunate evnt happened.

Jose was dead. Probably from a heart attack, just like his older brother. Without a rival claimant to the throne, the Leonese resistance simply melted away. Which meant two things. The first was that, bar the shouting, the Juan had control of all the formerly contested territory. Two, that Roberto was stuck dealing with a very, very angry Juan, and an evermore impatient Alessandro.

The war reached a fever pitch. But that’s just when France began to take notice. The King of France understood very well that Juan was playing for keeps. If Juan succeeded in conquering Aragon, then France would have no buffer state between herself and a very, very hostile Iberian state.

And so the Rene VI King of France went to war with Juan. At first, this meant very little. But he had a plan that would serve just about everybody’s aims.

Teodosio had been stewing in Rio de Janeiro for about three years whilst his country was being run by Juan. And he probably would have continued to stew, and quite honestly might have died in Brazil, were it not for French intervention. Rene VI planned to retake Portugal for Teodosio. Why would Rene care for Teodosio or his decaying empire? Because by splitting up Castile and Portugal, and by keeping Aragon alive, he would be able to keep Iberia divided against itself, and even get a buffer state to boot.

And so a grand martial array of French ships and the occasional Portuguese ship transported a grand army to the shores of Portugal. It was an event known in Portuguese history referred to as “O Regresso do Rei” (The Return of the King). When Teodosio entered Lisbon in triumph in 1768, Portugal was essentially lost for Juan.

In 1769, peace was brokered. Valencia would be returned to Aragon, and Teodosio would be recognized as the rightful king of Portugal. The signing of the Treaty of Seville is still referred to this day as the “Spanish Divorce”.

The only effect in Europe, ultimately, was that Castile and Portugal were separated after 155 years of union. But the effects in the colonies were great. For almost eight years contact with the mother country had essentially been severed. The various Viceroyalties and Captaincies had divided among themselves, each one pledging allegiance to a different kings at different times.

And so the colonies enjoyed a degree of quasi-independence. And while officially the colonies were once again subjects of either Portugal or Castile after this Last War of Crowns, the colonial system never really recovered. Colonial corruption would be a crippling problem from this point on in the two empires.

1772 AD - Rene VI was quite impressed by England’s ability to manage its own finances, and its ability to spend far more than it readily had. So impressed, in fact, that Rene set off to create his own bank for the country’s treasury.

It wasn’t all that easy. There were many who were opposed to such an idea, namely those still working the countryside, whose occupations don’t really require the use of a national banking establishment. However, Rene was able to plow his way through the red tape, and Rene VI was looked upon favorably by the influential bourgeoisie.

France would most certainly be able to put the national bank to good use before the century was out.

1776 - 1784 AD - The Great Northern War. The Grand Duke of Lithuania (Prince of Kiev, and of Novgorod, Ruler of Crimea, etc., etc…) noticed a bit of a situation in Muscovy’s feudal “empire”. Much like the Holy Roman Empire, the only thing which was really holding the Muscovite empire together was historical precedent, (many principalities banded together to destroy the Golden Horde). When the Prince of Moscow failed in his bid to gain very, very valuable ports on the Sea of Japan, many princes took this as a sign of weakness, and when the “Grand Prince” died, the Grand Duke of Lithuania was quick to seize on the opportunity.

But how? Outright invasion might well provoke an outcry in the immediate vicinity (Sweden was sure to take advantage of the situation, and perhaps even the rather ineffective and ailing Poland). Until the Grand Duke of Lithuania thought about a crown.

A very, very ancient crown.

Lithuania had for centuries held Kiev, the ancient capital of what was at the time Russia. But no other Grand Duke had made this an issue. This was not your average Lithuanian. Sigismund VIII wanted control of Russia. Not only would this serve to secure his own borders and provide large amounts of manpower, but it would provide Lithuania with a means of procuring eastern goods directly (rather than having to go through Muscovy, the Germiyanids, or anyone else for that matter)

And so when the Prince of Moscow died in 1776, Sigismund was quick to proclaim himself “Veliky Kniaz” of Kiev, and within a few months’ time began asserting his authority. And so the various Russian principalities were in a very, very weird place for the first few months of 1776.

But then something came out of left field. The grandson of the Swedish king apparently had a claim to the title “Prince of Moscow.”

And the king of Sweden was apparently willing to go to war to bring Russia into the Swedish sphere.

It was like a Lithuanian nightmare come true.

And so what resulted was a confusing, eight-year-long war, one of shifting alliances as the various princes of Russia waffled from one king or another. During the height of the war the Swedes had control of the entire Baltic coast, and were within a day’s march of Vilnius. However, Sigismund was able to procure the help of the King of Denmark in 1780, and the tide slowly turned against the Swedes as they were forced to fight a two-front war.

When Denmark had dragged-in Brandenburg (who wished for control of Swedish Pomerania) the war was essentially over for Sweden. The Swedes’ massive losses meant that by 1783 none of the Russian principalities backed the would-be Swedish Prince.

And so in 1784 Sigismund had his Russia. He immediately set about reforms. There would be none of this 13th century stuff, what with Princes telling the Veliky Kniaz what to do. Sigismund wanted to do things in Russia like he had been doing it in Lithuania (nice and centralized, relatively speaking).

And what better way to do that than a war?

1780 AD - The founding of the first English colony in Australia.

1787 - 1790 AD - With the revolt of the Moldavian prince from Turkish rule, Sigismund recognized his chance. He sent a discourse to the Turkish Sultan, informing him that Lithuania had guaranteed the independence of the Moldavian principality, and that any action taken to bring it back into the Germiyanid Empire would be taken as a declaration of war against Lithuania.

And so the Turks and the Lithuanians once again had themselves a war.

Both nations had battle-hardened armies (the Turks had recently wrested control of Mesopotamia from the crumbling Persian state), and the recent expansion meant that the Turks were actually thriving again. But in the end, sheer logistics won the war for Sigismund, who was unlike the Sultan able to get large armies to the theatre of war very quickly, whereas the Sultan on the other hand had to deal with the painful fact that he could not recruit a sizeable number of troops from the Balkans, and had to transport them from more Islamic regions of the Empire.

When a combined Hungarian-Venetian-Lithuanian fleet had been able to deal the Turks a painful naval defeat in the Sea of Marmara, the Lithuanians were free to run rampant across the Balkans. In 1790 the Turkish Sultan had no choice but to recognize the Moldavian prince as independent.

The loss of Moldavia was a huge blow to the authority of the Sultan in the mostly-Christian Balkans. Many historians trace the wave of nationalism in the Balkans to the outcome of this war.

1788 AD - In an attempt to avoid a succession crisis, the new King of Aragon relinquishes control of the Duchy of Milan to his uncle.

1792 AD - The Purchase of Corsica. Wanting access to the Mediterranean Sea, England was quick to jump on the offer made by the Republic of Genoa, whose control over the isle of Corsica has always been more theoretical than anything else.

1801 AD - The death of King Wilhelm I van Brugge of England, Scotland, and Ireland, Duke of Brabant and Count of Flanders. It was a reign which saw the rise of a uniquely “Bryttisc” Empire. Under King Wilhelm a national bank was created, which allowed for great spending power, spending power which drove the expansion of the colonies.

Almost all of the Spice Islands have been brought under heel. Australia, an entirely new continent, had been added to the burgeoning empire. India was now essentially and Anglo-French playground, and with victory in the Anglo-Iberian War and the subsequent drawing of the Wilhelmine line, Níweland was now part of the Anglosphere.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A map coming tommorow. Once again, sorry I had to cut it off, but rather than have you guys waiting any longer, I figured I'd best post something.

[Phoenix]

A few things.

The names for the contenders for the crown get changed up several times. Very confusing as to who is who.

Also, with the national banks, in OTL, they were dependent on large trading networks, giving rise to a class of ultra rich who were able to loan millions of pounds to the government for 10 or more years, loans which were guaranteed on future revenues, which were usually customs and excise.

The French, in OTL, have a very little trade, with most of the money centred in the crown, as opposed to the merchant houses.

[Thermopylae]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

The French, in OTL, have a very little trade, with most of the money centred in the crown, as opposed to the merchant houses.

The French however do have a larger trading network than IOTL. Not the largest, certainly. But with constant trading with India there's a great deal more.

Although, it might not be a large-enough trading network to justify the creation of a national bank.

Did I mix up the names? I'm sorry. I'll fix those.

[DAv]

Good update, nice to see Britain doesn't get involved in all the wars . One small suggestion for a further TL is the disentegration of the HRE into different nations since by now it appears to be mainly moribound and only a second rate power. One question, is Japan pretty much the same as OTL?

[Thermopylae]

*Bump*

No? Nothing at all, then?

Well, if that's the case...

El Mappo!

[Thande]

Originally Posted by Thermopylae

*Bump*

No? Nothing at all, then?

Well, if that's the case...

El Mappo!

El Mappo always works!

It almost seems like Anglo-Saxon England is turning into Flocc's Anglo-Dutch Empire

I like the fact that we always get the Falklands, regardless of how early the POD is Are you sure you're not secretly English, Thermo?

[Thermopylae]

Gah! A response!

Good update,

Thank you.

One small suggestion for a further TL is the disentegration of the HRE into different nations since by now it appears to be mainly moribound and only a second rate power.

True. Not sure how I'll pull it off. The HRE was like a cockroach. Couldn't kill it (till Nappy came along).

One question, is Japan pretty much the same as OTL?

It's funny you should mention that. Japan is going to be interesting in the future. You see, because "Bryten" has exclusive trading rights with Japan and has no reason to want it to open (may even fight for its closure), Japan may very well never modernize. (Think pre-Chinese Tibet, or current-day Bhutan.) Or if it does modernize, it'll be much later.

As of 1801, yeah it's still pretty much going down the same path.

[Thermopylae]

And another one! Damn you, Thande! Castigo te!

It almost seems like Anglo-Saxon England is turning into Flocc's Anglo-Dutch Empire

Scary, innit? Let's hope Flocc doesn't stumble on this one...

I like the fact that we always get the Falklands, regardless of how early the POD is

Well, my justification for it was to facilitate transport to California.

I was torn between giving Saxon England Tierra del Fuego or the Falklands. I basically asked myself "Which hellhole would England prefer to have?"

Are you sure you're not secretly English, Thermo?

I seem to oscillate between Anglophilia and Anglophobia. Sure I'm Anglophilic now. But need I remind you what happened to the Anglo-Saxons in CotH?

[DAv]

Couldn't kill it (till Nappy came along).

How about a minor civil war between two sections of the HRE with one of the generals/Princes/Kings/Transit vans absolutely kicking arse? After that, another piece of the HRE becomes vulnerable and the person starts to think "Why stop at Germany?"
Also, what's the yellow bit around China?

[Thande]

Originally Posted by Thermopylae

True. Not sure how I'll pull it off. The HRE was like a cockroach. Couldn't kill it (till Nappy came along).

Even then, the German Confederation was the HRE restored in all but name...

Originally Posted by Thermopylae

And another one! Damn you, Thande! Castigo te!

The Fake Spanish...

Originally Posted by Thermo

Scary, innit? Let's hope Flocc doesn't stumble on this one...

Actually I wonder what Flocc will think to this. There's a British (Brytesc?) Empire in India, but it's Anglo-Saxon. Keep Japan out of the East Indies and he'll probably die of happiness

Originally Posted by Thermo

I was torn between giving Saxon England Tierra del Fuego or the Falklands. I basically asked myself "Which hellhole would England prefer to have?"

Hey! The Falklands are all right by English standards! The major problem with Tierra del Fuego is that it's full of Tierra del Fuegians, as Charles Darwin discovered

Originally Posted by Thermo

I seem to oscillate between Anglophilia and Anglophobia. Sure I'm Anglophilic now. But need I remind you what happened to the Anglo-Saxons in CotH?

Well yes. But arguably the Franks were turned into Another Sort of English by their environment -

After all, the English identity is all about our island, not where we came from before that. No-one feels any attachment to Angeln or Old Saxony or Frisia. In a way it goes back to the Celtic mythology as well - the land and the people are one, the people and the king are one, the land and the king are one.

The notion of the Ancient Enemy becoming 'just like us' is such an interesting concept, even if we all die before it happens

[Thande]

Originally Posted by DAv

Also, what's the yellow bit around China?

I think it's supposed to be Chinese tributary states, like Tibet and Mongolia.

[Thermopylae]

Originally Posted by DAv

How about a minor civil war between two sections of the HRE with one of the generals/Princes/Kings/Transit vans absolutely kicking arse? After that, another piece of the HRE becomes vulnerable and the person starts to think "Why stop at Germany?"
Also, what's the yellow bit around China?

True. With liberalism on the rise and all, it's actually quite possible. The site of some sort of latter, alt-"French Revolution", so-to-speak.

(Thande is correct regarding all the little yellow bits)

Originally Posted by Thande

The Fake Spanish...

Actually, "Castigo te" is 100% Real Latin (All natural, No bastardizations) for "I blame you".

Actually I wonder what Flocc will think to this. There's a British (Brytesc?) Empire in India, but it's Anglo-Saxon. Keep Japan out of the East Indies and he'll probably die of happiness

I got "Bryttisc" from sifting through the Anglo-Saxon edition of the Wikipedia...

Keep Japan out of the East Indies? Well given how history's going now, that ought not be too hard to do...

Hey! The Falklands are all right by English standards! The major problem with Tierra del Fuego is that it's full of Tierra del Fuegians, as Charles Darwin discovered

And what were the Falklands populated with when Charles Darwin arrived? Yorkshiremen?

Well yes. But arguably the Franks were turned into Another Sort of English by their environment -

After all, the English identity is all about our island, not where we came from before that. No-one feels any attachment to Angeln or Old Saxony or Frisia. In a way it goes back to the Celtic mythology as well - the land and the people are one, the people and the king are one, the land and the king are one.

The notion of the Ancient Enemy becoming 'just like us' is such an interesting concept, even if we all die before it happens

That's true. So I guess there will always be an England!