Surviving Facist Italy
- Thread starter Agentdark
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Max Sinister
Banned
If Mussolini doesn't support Hitler at all, it's questionable that Hitler even gets Austria, let alone start WW2.
Maybe the Badoglio government manages to stop the Germans invading north of Rome, or even in the Alps. But the latter won't be possible, I guess.
Maybe the Badoglio government manages to stop the Germans invading north of Rome, or even in the Alps. But the latter won't be possible, I guess.
Well, Franco also had a rather modest foreign policy, and he made it a habit to stay out of everyone's way. Mussolini, by contrast, spent most of the 1920s and 1930s trying to build his "New Roman Empire" in the Balkans and north and east Africa, the wishes of London, Paris, Berlin, and Austria be damned. Of course, the British were fairly indulgent with him early on*, so he might be able to keep his little empire, at least until decolonization hits.
*Or so many have told me when I spouted gibberish on the subject before.
Maybe Mussolini just waits until 1943 for when his italian army is ready to do some damage. So when Germany crosses into France, Italy waits. When Germany strikes at Russia, Italy waits. Sure he allows a division of "volunteers" to go fight but Mussolini simply sits back and wrings his hands waiting for 1943 and the Roman Empire spreading across the globe.
But in 1942 the Americans get into it, with no North Africa war the US makes its first debute with bombing runs against Germany. The war ends about how it did orginially with D-Day, and the allies slugging it through the Low Countries, and Italy waiting.
The Italian army never sees combat in WWII, it does however turn a blind eye to the various Nazi's running through on their way to S. America. It has a good navy, a rather modern army, and thanks to various fleeing Germans is one of the first nations to produce a jet fighter. As time goes on Italy joins the UN, and NATO. Taking part in the Korean war, and even acting as a staging point for Anti-communist forces in the Balkans.
But in 1942 the Americans get into it, with no North Africa war the US makes its first debute with bombing runs against Germany. The war ends about how it did orginially with D-Day, and the allies slugging it through the Low Countries, and Italy waiting.
The Italian army never sees combat in WWII, it does however turn a blind eye to the various Nazi's running through on their way to S. America. It has a good navy, a rather modern army, and thanks to various fleeing Germans is one of the first nations to produce a jet fighter. As time goes on Italy joins the UN, and NATO. Taking part in the Korean war, and even acting as a staging point for Anti-communist forces in the Balkans.
King Thomas
Banned
He survives by avoiding being caught up in WW2, or joining the allies when the Germans are nearly beaten.
Here is a wierd thought too...
If Italy is out of the war then maybe Germany sends some of its gold to Italy and not Switzerland. In fact as time drags on Mussolini with his navy and position in the world could come out of WWII with some serious cash, or at least with nations oweing him a favor down the road.
If Italy is out of the war then maybe Germany sends some of its gold to Italy and not Switzerland. In fact as time drags on Mussolini with his navy and position in the world could come out of WWII with some serious cash, or at least with nations oweing him a favor down the road.
If Mussolini had been more prudent and realistic I'm pretty sure he could have become like a stronger Franco, sitting out WWII and later tacitly supporting NATO, but probably not actually joining because it wouldn't look good for NATO to have an openly fascist country as a member.
Of course, if he had been more prudent and realistic, he wouldn't have been the Mussolini we know from history.
Of course, if he had been more prudent and realistic, he wouldn't have been the Mussolini we know from history.
It also means Japan's war machine runs into a buzz saw in early 1942. Add several hundred RAF fighters, a stronger naval squadron and just a quarter of what was sent to North Africa and Singapore/Malaysia will be the grave of Japanese ambitions.
Thande, true, so Churchill probably invades Norway to resolve that AND ease some pressure on Stalin.
Wonder what it means if an entire fascist bloc survive the war, Italy, Spain, Portugal, perhaps even Turkey and Greece or even a Balkan nation or two?
Thande, true, so Churchill probably invades Norway to resolve that AND ease some pressure on Stalin.
Wonder what it means if an entire fascist bloc survive the war, Italy, Spain, Portugal, perhaps even Turkey and Greece or even a Balkan nation or two?
Maybe Facism wouldn' be seen as this horrid thing as many see it today. After all many writers, and thinkers of the 20's and 30's spoke of how Totaltarianism is Democratic in its own way. Keyes wrote that Mussolini and Hitler where fixing the economy for the sake of the civilization and not profit. A invisible hand with an Iron Glove if you will.
Plus Franco lasts, Mussolini lasts, over time those nations may look upon them as great leaders for surviving the storm of WWII, and their countries are better for it.
Plus Franco lasts, Mussolini lasts, over time those nations may look upon them as great leaders for surviving the storm of WWII, and their countries are better for it.
In the late 20s and early 30s Mussolini was a firm supporter of the fascist "Fatherland Front" government in Austria which opposed union with Germany. However, Mussolini broke the alliance in order to support Hitler... therefore, if Mussolini doesn't support Hitler, he probably continues to support Austria, which throws everything off...
Alcuin
Banned
According to his diary, Goebbels believed right up to the last minute, that Mussolini would intervene to try to prevent the Anschluss. Perhaps in this timeline, he does..., possibly even, as a result, shaming France and Britain into intervening to thwart Germany's ambitions, bringing forward the war and perhaps ending it before it really got nasty?
Max Sinister
Banned
Or Hitler would play Vabanque, as he always did, simply invade Austria and see whether Mussolini's ready for war.
Fascist Italy, post-WWII, will probably no longer follow its goal of a "Novum Imperium Romanum", given the delicate conditions. instead, as the only major fascist country in the world, it will join the cold war between the US & Soviet Union as the "third player". it will support "nationalist, anti-communist" movements around the world, providing arms & training. it will also join the nuclear arms race & the space race. the OVRA would evolve into a "fascist KGB", silencing all opposition internally & engaging in intelligence operations externally.
had it survived, not only well-established fascist (or fascistic) movements in countries not under the Warsaw Pact flourish, it will increase. there will be "nationalist & anti-communist" movements from the islands of the carribean to the deserts of the middle east & north africa (of course, all under the control of rome). instead of seeking support from the US, dictators, from Amin to Stroessner, will get it from italy.
given this status of a superpower, italy would probably not seek an alliance with NATO; instead it will form its own military pact in europe with similar, like-minded regimes, calling it the SMDO (south mediterranean defense organisation).
had it survived, not only well-established fascist (or fascistic) movements in countries not under the Warsaw Pact flourish, it will increase. there will be "nationalist & anti-communist" movements from the islands of the carribean to the deserts of the middle east & north africa (of course, all under the control of rome). instead of seeking support from the US, dictators, from Amin to Stroessner, will get it from italy.
given this status of a superpower, italy would probably not seek an alliance with NATO; instead it will form its own military pact in europe with similar, like-minded regimes, calling it the SMDO (south mediterranean defense organisation).
What about Spain? I would call it a major country and fascist. Or how about Argentina. The Perons where basically fascist in all but name.
Also the idea of Italy started a "Third Movement" is likely impossible. It had tried to do this exact thing and failed in the interwar period. This is mainly because no one wanted to listen to Mussolini, Italy provided little funding and nationalist movement are, because of their very nature, unlikely to cooperate much above a superficial level. There was many nationalist movements all over Europe during the 1920s and 1930s but once Germany or Italy occupied a country they all basically shattered between patriots, who wanted to fight the countries that occupied their homes, or puppets, who where mainly opportunists, like Quisling in Norway or Ferenc Szálasi in Hungary.
Another point is that in 1945 (or 1944, or 1946, when ever the Nazis lose) if the Italians start causing trouble supporting nationalists in Austria, France, Germany, what have you that the Allies, probably still on good terms with each other if Italy, the home of fascism, exists as a common enemy.
Now the best thing for Italy to do is pull a Franco. Grant democratic reforms, try to hold to the colonies (Libya, Albania and Italian Somalia (Ethiopia was a waste and no gain would ever come of it especially it the Italians keep spending their limited money in a country that hates them) or whatever else they take (if there smart only coastal Yugoslavia and part of Greece, anything else would cause problems with the Soviets and the West later) and wait for Libya oil money to fund development.
continuation from last post...
(Correction on the second-to-the-last paragraph:
"Instead of seeking support from the US, the Soviet Union, or any other major power on earth, dictators, from Amin to Stroessner, would probably get it from Italy.
Given the superpower status Italy enjoys, it probably would not join NATO. instead, it will form its own mutual defense organisation together with similar & like-minded nations, called the MDT [mediterranean defense treaty, due to the proximity of the founder nations to the mediterranean sea].)
this turns europe virtually into a dangerous place to wage war, with three armed camps ready to fight, with nukes if necessary.
italy can do all of the abovementioned things due to the following:
(Correction on the second-to-the-last paragraph:
"Instead of seeking support from the US, the Soviet Union, or any other major power on earth, dictators, from Amin to Stroessner, would probably get it from Italy.
Given the superpower status Italy enjoys, it probably would not join NATO. instead, it will form its own mutual defense organisation together with similar & like-minded nations, called the MDT [mediterranean defense treaty, due to the proximity of the founder nations to the mediterranean sea].)
this turns europe virtually into a dangerous place to wage war, with three armed camps ready to fight, with nukes if necessary.
italy can do all of the abovementioned things due to the following:
- the fall of the nazi regime leads to an influx of german scientists abroad. most of them are welcomed by il duce to italy.
- by this time, mussolini would have polished his fascist ideology to suit with the times. the emphasis would be on "security & stability", leading to the establishment of various fascist parties & movements around the globe throating the same line.
- mussolini won't join NATO for if he did, britain, france & the US will force him to abandon support for "nationalist, anti-communist" (and i don't mean nationalist here) movements around the world, many of which are threatening the interests of the abovementioned powers, though they all share the same anticommunism.
- TTL's mussolini will very much be like de gaulle. an extreme one, trying to keep his country's independence from yankee domination.