Stalin dies Nov 1941

[Brilliantlight]

What if Stalin dies in a car crash in Nov of 1941? How far do the Germans get now? Do they take Moscow before the Russians can get their act together? Who takes over? Does the US increase the Lend-Lease to the USSR?

[Xen]

Perhaps the west can have the best of both worlds. After Stalins death a council is assembled in Moscow, they remain united long enough until they have the Germans on the run, then they begin to bicker amongst themselves. Due to the chaos, it slows the Red Army down and fears of Civil War runs high. The Americans are the first in Berlin causing Germany to surrendor. Unable to loot and plunder eastern Europe, the Soviet Union finds itself bankrupt and collapse imminent.

The US is able to "buy" Eastern Europe, and prop up the USSR a little. However the council cant decide on a new leader and Civil War erupts. Britain and the US sit back watching until they see a side they can prop up and put in their back pocket. A right-wing faction led by a former officer wins control of Russia and destroys the Communist system in favor of a western Capitalist one. By the 1980's Russia is emerging as one of the worlds economic and industrial leaders.

[Beck Reilly]

I'd think the new leader would be either Vyacheslav Molotov (most likely since he was replaced as Premier by Stalin that very year [1941] and was currently the Vice Premier) or that nut, Lavrenty Beria (made deputy premier in 1941). However, I'd expect to see an uneasy alliance between Georgy Zhukov (and the Red Army) and Vyacheslav Molotov (and the foreign service apparatus). Neither group could rule on their own for an extended period of time and neither group would want to see Beria and the NKVD in control. Plus, Zhukov and Molotov, although Communist, are going to be MUCH more liberal than Beria.

[Mr.Bluenote]

Originally Posted by Walter_Kaufmann

(...) However, I'd expect to see an uneasy alliance between Georgy Zhukov (and the Red Army) and Vyacheslav Molotov (and the foreign service apparatus).

In quite many ATL Zhukov is mentioned as a possible leader of the USSR after Stalin's premature demise, compared to our own real TL, that is! But how well connected was he really? And had he any political aspirations? From what I've read he dosn't seem to be active on the political stage, but then again in the USSR under Uncle Joe that might be somewhat suicidal!

Best regards and all!

- Mr.Bluenote.

Honeste vivere, alterum non ladere, suum cuique tribuere!

[Brilliantlight]

Originally Posted by Walter_Kaufmann

I'd think the new leader would be either Vyacheslav Molotov (most likely since he was replaced as Premier by Stalin that very year [1941] and was currently the Vice Premier) or that nut, Lavrenty Beria (made deputy premier in 1941). However, I'd expect to see an uneasy alliance between Georgy Zhukov (and the Red Army) and Vyacheslav Molotov (and the foreign service apparatus). Neither group could rule on their own for an extended period of time and neither group would want to see Beria and the NKVD in control. Plus, Zhukov and Molotov, although Communist, are going to be MUCH more liberal than Beria.

Personally I would think it would be Molotov who was the most influential person in the USSR save for Stalin. Zhukov might try a military coup but Russia doesn't have much of a history in that.

[Tom_B]

Zhukov would wait before trying a military coup. What is interesting is that Zhukov wanted to make the Russian winter counteroffensive on a relatively narrow front and Stalin insisted on a broad front. Military historians almost always conclude Zhukov was right and Stalin was wrong so it looks like Army Group Center is in serious trouble in this TL.

[Brilliantlight]

Originally Posted by Tom_B

Zhukov would wait before trying a military coup. What is interesting is that Zhukov wanted to make the Russian winter counteroffensive on a relatively narrow front and Stalin insisted on a broad front. Military historians almost always conclude Zhukov was right and Stalin was wrong so it looks like Army Group Center is in serious trouble in this TL.

Depends on how long it takes for the new government to take over. If it is done quickly it will be much better for the USSR as Stalin was his worst enemy in military matters. If there is a long drawn out power struggle then the Germans benefit from the chaos.

[Brilliantlight]

If the Nazis take Moscow can the Russians push them back out like when they fought Napoleon?

[Matthew Craw]

In late 1941 no one leader is in a position to take power after Stalin's death, in teh short term I suspect that the five man defense committee would take power, Molotov, Malenkov, Beria, Zhukov and one other who I think was Voroshilov. They should be able to do so since the group already existed and played the key role in running the war under Stalin, the Soviet bureaucracy is good at following orders at the centre and there is an obvious incentive to avoid infighting.


In the long term Voroshilov and Beria are gone, the former's an nonentity without Stalin's support and Beria's simply too much feared. Their replacements?, probably Zhdanov and Koniev (can't allow Zhukov to become undisputed leader of the army)

I doubt that infighting would p[lay a significant role in the war, the military leadership won't get involved and there's no reason the political struggles shoulsd impact strategy. I'd expect the USSR to do BETTER with Stalin's interference removed.

The results could be a communist Austria, a division of italy and a better deal for the Soviets on German reparations.

[Brilliantlight]

Originally Posted by Matthew Craw

In late 1941 no one leader is in a position to take power after Stalin's death, in teh short term I suspect that the five man defense committee would take power, Molotov, Malenkov, Beria, Zhukov and one other who I think was Voroshilov. They should be able to do so since the group already existed and played the key role in running the war under Stalin, the Soviet bureaucracy is good at following orders at the centre and there is an obvious incentive to avoid infighting.

Sure there is an incentive to avoid infighting but it is part of human nature to be tempted to do so. This commitee is made of people who want to be #1 and there can be only one #1. If the Russians have some infighting for a while it may go better for the Germans, at least in the short run.

[Matthew Craw]

Originally Posted by Brilliantlight

Sure there is an incentive to avoid infighting but it is part of human nature to be tempted to do so. This commitee is made of people who want to be #1 and there can be only one #1. If the Russians have some infighting for a while it may go better for the Germans, at least in the short run.

Who would want to be #1?
Molotov wasn't especially asertive, there's a reason he survived so long as Stalin's DEPUTY

Zhukov didn't have th epolitical connections/ambitions.

Malenkov didn't have the prestiege, and he knew it.

Voroshilov doesn't have any independant support/power-base

That leaves Beria, and if he tries anything he'd be very quickly isolated and eliminated