Nazi's win- whats France like with no liberation

[birdy]

i was gonna do a What does a Nazi occupied USA look like, but seeing as that would get bogged down in 'how would they get there (probably rightly)
i'll just say WI Germany at least managed to keep its european gains- maybe a stalemate in East and compromise peace with UK and US (if it enters war)

what would an unliberated France and western europe in general look like.

THIS IS NOT A FRANCE BASHING THREAD!



might we see US/allied funded liberation movements in France and Netherlands etc- maybe French jews are funnelled out to UK (if its unoccupied), since 75% survived the Holocaust a lot of people must've been hiding them, what'll De Gaulle do?

[Iñaki]

Uff! Petain France would be the kind of France based in the real core of the soul of french (according to Petain ): the land, the agriculture, the farmers in a France minus Alsacia-Lorena and the occupation of North France by german troops as indemnization of the costs of war ( you know this great mines, these industries in the north, all going to Germany) + naval german bases along the coast and Madagascar converted in some kind of giant jew ghetto.

It would be a bizarre and strange France.

[thejester]

A France bitterly divided, IMO, and as time goes on the wounds will only get deeper.

[Homer]

France would be forced into a fascist nation like Italy. Hitler would enforce a Germany-led alliance of all "Nordic" Nations, where he included the French.

Actually, I don't believe that there would still be that much of resistance: with the war ended, there is no need for a German occupation to ensure French well-behaving. There would be some ports for the Germans, but with Petain in Paris, the Germans out, economy recovering, and no hope on foreign saviours that would once come and liberate the homeland, I doubt that many would fight on.

[Wendell]

Do they get "back" the colonies lost to France in the previous war?

[Berra]

My idea: The Nazis fuck up France and som strange radical mvement starts (aka things starts happen as they did in Germany pre war)

[Fenwick]

Didn't Hitler plan to leave France and focus on the East?

[zoomar]

Very hypothetical/fun timeline - based on early 1941 armistice with Britain (very generouis to UK) ending of "hot" war in west, far more successful invasion of the USSR, and US preoccupation with Japan in far east.

Mid 1942, Alsace-Lorraine formally ceded to Germany by Petain govt

Mid 1942, in exchange for release of all French POWs, Petain govt agrees to enter formal military alliance with Germany to ensure European Security against bolshevist hordes. French expeditionary forces are sent to assist German advances against largely prostrate USSR in Crimea and Caucasus; serve occupation duty in Moscow, Stalingrad, and along with Finns, in Leningrad

Late 1942, Germany ends occupation of Paris and northern France, but retains 99 year leases on air and naval bases along Bay of Biscay and channel; seat of government returned to Paris in grand ceremony attended by Hitler and representatives of all major powers except USSR and UK. Overall satisfaction with Petain govt in France is high.

Early 1943, conflicts break out between Italy and France over colonial holdings in North Africa. Italy invades Algeria, and as usual, are beaten back. This time Germany does not come to Italy's assistance, being rather embarrased by this conflict between its fascist buddies. Italians are humiliated and angered by German reaction. Mussolini opens secret talks with Britain, which Britain eagerly pursues.

May 15, 1943. In a secret message to Germany, Mussolini threatens dissolution of Nazi alliance, withdrawal of Italian support from war in USSR, and alliance with UK unless Germany supports all Italian aims in Africa and southern Europe.

May 30-August 4, 1943. In a lightning campaign, German forces invade and occupy all of mainland Italy; France occupies Sardinia, Sicily, and Lybia. Mussolini flees and establishes a government in exile in London.

At about the same time, USSR enters Pacific War on US side - mainly to secure an alliance with USA eventually against Germany. USSR quickly occupies Manchuria and Korea while US has already defeated Japanese fleet off the Phillipines. Japan sues for peace in early 1944 and US materiel aid begins flowing to USSR for war against Germany.

1944 With US materiel reaching USSR thu asia, USSR begins to mount counter offensives. Germany declares war on USA. Eventually (1945) UK also enters (as much out of fear of soviet domination of Europe than Germany)

Eventually, things end up a lot like ATL, except WW2 ends in 1947, with several US nuclear blasts over Germany and France. Use of nukes causes total diplomatic collapse of Nazi alliance structure with Finland, Hungary, Romania, and France attempting to break away from Germany to save their skins. Minor wars break out between fascist and antifascist forces throughout Europe. Soviet Forces reach Berlin in September 1947 at about the same time US and UK troops enter Paris. Petain is caught by French nationalists attempting to show they were anti-nazi freedom fighters and is strung up by his feet. This ruse does not work as both Germany (including Austria) and France are divided among USSR, UK, and USA zones of occupation. In France, UK gets the channel area connected with a northern occupation zone in north Germany to the Oder, the USA takes the west and south and a connecting narrow southern strip of Germany thru Bavaia and Austria, and the USSR takes a big chunk in the central part of France and Germany connecting to Soviet occupied Poland and Czechoslovakia. Paris and Berlin are divided among the Big Three.

IN final peace settlememnt of 1952, Italy gets south coast of France, all of Germany is restored as the German Peoples Republic under Soviet domination. In exchange, Russia abandons all claims in France, which is then reconstituted (except for the south) as the Fifth Republic, which is forced to maintain British and US military bases.

[Thande]

Originally Posted by zoomar

Very hypothetical/fun timeline - based on early 1941 armistice with Britain (very generouis to UK) ending of "hot" war in west, far more successful invasion of the USSR, and US preoccupation with Japan in far east.

By that point, Britain and Italy were already at war.

[zoomar]

Originally Posted by Thande

By that point, Britain and Italy were already at war.

Do'h.

But they will be at peace after the armistice, I suppose. Maybe. Oh well, why confuse a good story with facts

[Thande]

Originally Posted by zoomar

Do'h.

But they will be at peace after the armistice, I suppose. Maybe. Oh well, why confuse a good story with facts

I could see them being at peace after the armistice, sure, but it makes the idea of Britain cosying up to Italy a few years later a little less likely. Still, realpolitick, I suppose.;