Guns of the South?

[RMG]

I've heard good things about Guns of the South, and I'm thinking of reading it, but I gotta ask one thing first?

Is it a big pro-Confederate powar~wank(tm) (like an AH Gods and Generals... Michael Shaara is rolling in his grave, Jeff.), or would it still be fun for a militant liberal New England yankee?

[Grey Wolf]

I enjoyed it - whilst part of me is pro-Confederate in that I would like to see the USA smaller and more equal in the world, it was really just a good read. It probably depends on whether you have a good opinion of Robert E Lee as a person. The Afrikaners are not particuarly sympathetically portrayed so you don't really need to worry there.

Grey Wolf

Originally Posted by RMG

I've heard good things about Guns of the South, and I'm thinking of reading it, but I gotta ask one thing first?

Is it a big pro-Confederate powar~wank(tm) (like an AH Gods and Generals... Michael Shaara is rolling in his grave, Jeff.), or would it still be fun for a militant liberal New England yankee?

[ConfederateFly]

I liked Guns of the South and I'm from Indiana. I was thinking it would be a good movie.

[NapoleonXIV]

Like a lot of AH ASB type things the first part of the book is a bit too much of a foregone conclusion (I mean what else possibly COULD happen once you give the Confederates AK47s, they're gonna lose? Well no, but the Union could have put up more of a fight). The second part is more interesting but there seems a real lack of villains among the real historical figures although that is understandable.

[NHBL]

Spoiler for Guns of the South
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Just once, I'd like to see someone get a supply of uptime weapons, knowlege, or something, and still end up in the same situation, or similar to it. In Guns of the Douth, suppose that the Rebel successes led to a rush to get Gatling guns deployed. At the battle for Washington, as the rebels close in, Gatling Guns tear them to shreds. Several of the time travellers die, and some are captured in the rout, while Lee's army is broken. As it routs, other Union forces, with more Gatlings, manage to cut off the retreat.
What are the implications from such a victory?

[NapoleonXIV]

OMG, I'm sorry about no spoiler warning. Please forgive me this once. I'm just not used to civilized discourse. I'll be more careful in the future. Sorry, sorry , sorry

[Amerigo Vespucci]

I liked it. It was one of the books that really got me interested in alternate history. It doesn't go into so much detail about the production of such-and-such mechanical process that you're overwhelmed, but there is enough detail, original dialogue, and creative writing to keep one entertained. HT doesn't plan to write a sequel, and I appreciate it. There's enough in that one book to keep you thinking for a while about the possibilities, and another volume would ruin that for me. I, too, am originally from Indiana, and didn't find any ideological conflicts or anything offensive like that.

[Hymie Goldberg]

The only objection I had with Guns was that RE Lee wasn't portrayed as the cowardly racist that he truly was.

[Straha]

who dude chill I might be a libelra yank but don't be *THAT* anti-southern I just want them adn their politics out of the country.

[Beck Reilly]

Umm...Hymie Goldberg. Robert E. Lee, a "cowardly racist"? I think not. What the hell are you talking about? Are you trying to start a flame war or are you simply just THAT ignorant?

[Hymie Goldberg]

Originally Posted by Walter_Kaufmann

Umm...Hymie Goldberg. Robert E. Lee, a "cowardly racist"? I think not. What the hell are you talking about? Are you trying to start a flame war or are you simply just THAT ignorant?

It seems to me that you are the one starting a flame war, Walt. Your post had absolutely nothing to do with the thread topic and was posted for the soul purpose of calling me "ignorant."

Of course I have an argument to back up my thesis of RE Lee being a cowardly racist but this thread is not the place for it.


The ignorant resort to name-calling
To avoid seeing thier own short-falling.

Luckily, though, there are those such as me
Always willing to speak o'er cacophony.

[Beck Reilly]

Excuse me, but I'd be generally interested in hearing how, exactly, your argument shows that R.E. Lee was a "cowardly racist?" I have never once heard ANYONE ever call Lee a "cowardly racist."

Umm...and speaking of racism, I don't really think you should be talking, just take a look at your own choice of a name.

[David Howery]

cowardly? hardly... he served in the Mexican war with distinction. Racist? probably, but about as much as most white men in those days. Was he a slave owner?

[Beck Reilly]

Yes, Lee was a slave owner. OTOH, Lee treated his slaves well compared to most and was planning to free them at his death. Also, he didn't buy his slaves. They were left to him by his father-in-law.

I don't know how anyone could call him a "coward," and actually believe themselves.

[ConfederateFly]

I think so, but he got them slaves when his Father-in-Law died and I think he Freed them, but they still stayed and worked for him.

[NapoleonXIV]

Originally Posted by Hymie Goldberg

It seems to me that you are the one starting a flame war, Walt. Your post had absolutely nothing to do with the thread topic and was posted for the soul purpose of calling me "ignorant."

Of course I have an argument to back up my thesis of RE Lee being a cowardly racist but this thread is not the place for it.


The ignorant resort to name-calling
To avoid seeing thier own short-falling.

Luckily, though, there are those such as me
Always willing to speak o'er cacophony.

Since you are calling him a cowardly racist in this thread I can't think of a better place for it. At the time of the war he was the most beloved character on EITHER side, according to Sharra, I believe, and is still generally listed among the 10 most beloved/admired people in American history

hmm....troll, troll, troll your boat.....

I have seen books that propose the thesis that he wasn't really that good a general.

[Hymie Goldberg]

If he wasn't a coward, why'd he surrender? His army wasn't defeated. All he had to do was let the Yankees have Richmond.

If he were truly fighting for his country and not just fighting for slavery, he'd have led the Army of Northern Virginia into the Blue Ridge Mts and fought a guerrilla war.

A guerrilla war made no sense to Lee because the slaves would be freed by the Yankee occupation, regardless.


PS--I believe that Lee was no more racist than Lincoln, but Lincoln was a racist too. Lincoln was also a tyrant who deserved to die. As far as "cowardly" goes, maybe "gutless" would've been a better word choice since the mere absense of bravery might not equate to cowardliness in the eyes of some.

[NapoleonXIV]

Originally Posted by Hymie Goldberg

If he wasn't a coward, why'd he surrender? His army wasn't defeated. All he had to do was let the Yankees have Richmond.

If he were truly fighting for his country and not just fighting for slavery, he'd have led the Army of Northern Virginia into the Blue Ridge Mts and fought a guerrilla war.

A guerrilla war made no sense to Lee because the slaves would be freed by the Yankee occupation, regardless.


PS--I believe that Lee was no more racist than Lincoln, but Lincoln was a racist too. Lincoln was also a tyrant who deserved to die. As far as "cowardly" goes, maybe "gutless" would've been a better word choice since the mere absense of bravery might not equate to cowardliness in the eyes of some.

Good god man, Lincoln too?? Was Schweitzer a bad pianist and Mother Teresa a heretic?

Lee did give them Richmond, didn't he? My understanding is he surrendered at Appomatox because he was surrounded and his men were starving.

A guerrilla war made no sense to Lee because it made no sense to anybody. Why continue pointless killing? Whatever the issue, slavery or state's rights, it was done.

Bravery doesn't consist in the stubborn refusal to give up even when the point is gone and nothing but hurt will come from continuance. Your suggestion reminds me of the definition of fanaticism, "to redouble one's efforts when you've forgotten your goal." Keep in mind that many people on both sides quite confidently expected that Lee would be summarily hanged after he surrendered and he had very good reason to believe that might well happen. You are right in believing he himself could probably have slipped away. Many high Confederates in other locations did. But he did the surrender himself, probably because he realized that this would get the best deal for his men. Whatever the reason, it seems a brave thing to me.

[tom]

As you can probably guess from my Aesop and Mammaloid stories, I am a hater of slavery and bigotry. I am certainly not sympathetic to the South. Yet, from what I know of Lee's career and his statements before, during and after the War (not much, I admit) he seems more decent a human being than anyone else in the South and most of the population of the North.

[David Howery]

my, we have some sweeping revisions of history today.
Lee was no coward. Going guerilla is a decision for one man, not a leader of men. By surrendering, he got rations for his men, and they got to keep their horses. The war was over, and everyone knew it. During the Mexican war, Lee served under Scott and was instrumental in the Battle of Cerro Gordo; he was the one who found a way around the Mexican position. At Chapultepec, he was the one who found a path through the lava beds at the Pedregal and he was wounded during the storming of the fort there. Hardly the actions of a coward.
Lincoln was indeed a mild racist, as has been long known to historians. However, he did NOT think that blacks were necessarily inferior, just that they couldn't live side by side with whites. He wanted to free them and send them back to Africa at first... eventually, he settled for simply wanting to free them. In his youth, he made a riverboat trip to New Orleans, where he was appalled at the sight of blacks in chains being herded by slave drivers. This affected him deeply, and he soon gained a desire to end slavery. His hope was that it would die off on its own and the blacks could be shipped back to Africa. The ACW forced him to change a lot of his views....