Alaric sacks Constantinople

DominusNovus · Jul 22, 2004

Alaric, king of the Goths, thought about attacking Constantinople in AD 395, but decided not to, and instead invaded Greece.

What if, he goes after the wealth of Constantinople, and succeeds (perhaps a traitor helps him)? Better yet, let it butterfly away the sack of Rome.

Faeelin · Jul 22, 2004

Would a traitor let a barbarian sack Constantinople? Hmm. Maybe the slaves.... did Constantinople have slaves?

cow defender · Jul 22, 2004

would alaric try to stay? if not where would the goths go afterword?

Norman · Jul 22, 2004

Stay in Constantinople

You know when I was looking into Goth History, I ran across the fact that the first pirates and raiders who were of germanic stock were the goths. Seems they had taken to raiding all over the black sea.

If the goths took Constantinople and were able to hold it culturally, we get two changes. First, the iberian pennisula and northern Itlay are never conquered.

Second, maybe we get a pirate kingdom. Yarghh!

Diamond · Jul 23, 2004

Norman said:
If the goths took Constantinople and were able to hold it culturally, we get two changes.

You get a heck of a lot more than just TWO changes.

-Eastern Roman Empire is stillborn.
-No Orthodox Christian Churche(s)?
-If Italy still disintegrates and falls to barbarians (minus the Goths), where do its heirs relocate? Carthage?

Spain? Western Gaul?
-Vastly different interactions with Islam (assuming there even IS an Islam)
-Different migration and settlement patterns for the Avars, Bulgars, all the rest.

Abdul Hadi Pasha · Jul 23, 2004

The problem with this is that there was considerably less than a snowball's chance in Hell of Alaric getting past the walls of Constantinople - that was, after all, the point of the city in the first place.

I think you would have to have a civil war as your POD with the Goths being used as mercenaries by some faction for this to work, ala 1204.

The fall of Constantinople to Alaric would have been a catastrophe beyond comprehension. No Roman Empire, no Islam, no Renaissance, nothing. We would probably still be in some sort of Dark Age.

DominusNovus · Jul 23, 2004

Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
I think you would have to have a civil war as your POD with the Goths being used as mercenaries by some faction for this to work, ala 1204.

IIRC, the two empires had some relatively cold relations at the time. I think the ministers of either emperor hated each other. So, a civil war is possible.

cow defender · Jul 23, 2004

I'm not convinced that this would lead to a longer dark ages.

MerryPrankster · Jul 23, 2004

To be fair to the Ostrogoths, they were fairly orderly about sacking things. If they seized Constantinople, I imagine most everything would remain standing, though they'd run off with gold, women, etc. Compare this with the Vandals, whose sack of Rome was so outrageously violent that their name became synonomous with destroying things.

Of course, if Alaric plans to stay, he'd want to keep the governmental structure in place. Just lop off a few heads to show who's boss and then continue running things as before. That'll preserve a lot of the knowledge, bureaucracy, etc. that made Constantinople so important.

Now, if the Ostrogoths are in Constantinople and parts of Greece and Asia Minor, who's going for Italy?

Norman · Jul 24, 2004

Diamond said:
You get a heck of a lot more than just TWO changes.

-Eastern Roman Empire is stillborn.
-No Orthodox Christian Churche(s)?
-If Italy still disintegrates and falls to barbarians (minus the Goths), where do its heirs relocate? Carthage? Spain? Western Gaul?
-Vastly different interactions with Islam (assuming there even IS an Islam)
-Different migration and settlement patterns for the Avars, Bulgars, all the rest.

Actually, the Goths were Christian, so we get Orthodox Christianity, just not the one we know.

Hansmeister · Jul 24, 2004

Matt Quinn said:
Now, if the Ostrogoths are in Constantinople and parts of Greece and Asia Minor, who's going for Italy?

Alaric crowns himself emperor, Ostrogoths move into Asia Minor, Alaric invites his cousins, the Visigoths into the balkans. Without the Goths knocking at the Western Empire, it survives largely intact, at least in the short term, losing only Britain to the Saxons and Pannonia to the Vandals.

DominusNovus · Jul 24, 2004

Hansmeister said:
Alaric crowns himself emperor, Ostrogoths move into Asia Minor, Alaric invites his cousins, the Visigoths into the balkans. Without the Goths knocking at the Western Empire, it survives largely intact, at least in the short term, losing only Britain to the Saxons and Pannonia to the Vandals.

Alaric wouldn't crown himself emperor. He'd put a puppet on the throne, just like every barbarian who took over Italy in OTL. Alaric had a puppet when he took Rome. Odacer had Romulus Agustulus, until he decided he no longer needed a puppet. Then, he just said he was king of Italy, ruling on the (eastern) Emperor's behalf. The legality of it all was just as important to the barbarians as it was to the Romans, since the barbarians would be ruling Romans. To put it another way, Alaric was just as likely to take Rome and declare himself Pope.

robertp6165 · Jul 24, 2004

Alaric was actually ruler of the Visigoths (Western Goths). The Ostrogoths (Eastern Goths) were actually vassals of the Huns at this time.

cow defender · Jul 24, 2004

hmm, so alaric of the visis (sigh, composite tl) takes constantinople sets up a puppet- would he invite his ostro cousins? would this incur the wrath of the huns? what part would they play in this landgrab?

Norman · Jul 24, 2004

cow defender said:
hmm, so alaric of the visis (sigh, composite tl) takes constantinople sets up a puppet- would he invite his ostro cousins? would this incur the wrath of the huns? what part would they play in this landgrab?

He might not invite all of them, but if he could offer some security from the Huns, it is a safe bet that many of the family 'tribes' of the Ostrogoth, Vandal and other closely related groups would just leave the Huns and somehow end up with Alaric.

If so, then perhaps the East would present such a figure as to push Atilla on to the west more quickly, where they would weaken the West.

Peter · Jul 25, 2004

Norman said:
You know when I was looking into Goth History, I ran across the fact that the first pirates and raiders who were of germanic stock were the goths. Seems they had taken to raiding all over the black sea.

If the goths took Constantinople and were able to hold it culturally, we get two changes. First, the iberian pennisula and northern Itlay are never conquered.

Second, maybe we get a pirate kingdom. Yarghh!

It was the Visigoths that conquered Iberia, not the Ostorogoths.

Norman · Jul 25, 2004

Peter said:
It was the Visigoths that conquered Iberia, not the Ostorogoths.

True, but nothing breeds unity like success. If Alaric takes Constantinople, I am certain that the two halves of the Gothic people would soon be rejoined.

Besides, I am partial to the idea of a medieval Gothic Pirate Kingdom.

MerryPrankster · Jul 25, 2004

Weren't the Goths at the time Arians? That could lead to some interesting church politics in Constantinople...

Norman · Jul 25, 2004

Matt Quinn said:
Weren't the Goths at the time Arians? That could lead to some interesting church politics in Constantinople...

Yes the Goths were Arian, a fact that would have tremendous implications if the Goths were to take over the Greek Peninsula.

Also, even if the GGoths took over Greece, would the Eastern Empire actually collapse, or merely move its capital to Egypt or some other place?

I can see a three cornered mediterranean. In the West you have the remnants of the western empire, at least until they are conquered by Northern Germans. In Egypt you have the remnants of the Eastern Empire, and in Greece a growing center to the Gothic Kingdom.

MerryPrankster · Jul 25, 2004

In the Composite TL II, we (Cow_Defender, Dominus, some other people, and I) were discussing how to return the Arians to the orthodox Christian fold, and came up with a Church that had orthodox views on the Trinity, but rejected State favors (Arius complained about Constantine "killing the soul with gold") and, true to the Goths' warrior heritage, advocated physical fighting against injustice (it will possibly lead to a Crusade against Tamerlane to save the Nestorian Christians, but we're still discussing it.

Could such a thing result in this TL, perhaps as a result of intermarriage and that sort of thing? Or will the Goths remain a sort of warrior-aristocracy separated from the populace by religion as well as ethnicity?