AH challenge: The Venetian colonial empire

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to have Venetian colonies in the Americas by 1800 with a POD no earlier than 1550. The colonies can not be bought or obtained by treaty, but established by the Venetians themselves. Bonus points if they also have colonies in Asia or Africa (outside the Mediterranean).

[Ran Exilis]

And with a POD no earlier than 1550? That's gonna be tricky, you know...

You see, that date is long after Spain had been properly united,
and that means that the mighty Spanish kingdom is in control of Gibraltar,
which just happens to be right on every possible route from Venetia to the New World.

And knowing how jealously the Spanish guarded their new colonial empire in the New World, it's highly unlikely
that they'd just let the Venetians through, as soon as they found out that they had the same interests in the New World...

And aside from Spain, there are still other nations competing for the New World, such as Portugal and England (conquest and trade), France (mainly conquest) and the Netherlands (mainly trade), all of whom were not so easily blocked from the New World by a rival nation that just so happens to be in control of Gibraltar...

The only likely scenario would be a powerful Venetia that somehow managed to gain control of Gibraltar, just like Britain controls it even now. And that would take a much more powerful (or just incredibly lucky...) Venetia, hence that does mean going up againest Spain, the superpower of it's day...

..
I really like the scenanario, but nonetheless, I don't really see a way to properly realize it with a POD that's no earlier than 1550...

[WhatIsAUserName]

Yeah, I agree that the hardest part will involve knocking out Spain. To do this, I think you need some economic problems, and that depends on removing all that wealth from the Americas. They did suffer from some bad ones, so make those worst while you're at it.

The last remnants of the Inca Empire continued to fight against Spanish rule till 1572, so I guess you can make it somehow a lot harder on them.

The Valley of Mexico were hit by two epidemics starting in 1545, so maybe remove these two, keep the population up, and let them cause a bunch of riots and rebellions too.

Give the Spanish a very, very bad Eighty Year's War, and all of the Netherlands goes to the Dutch, causing them to become even more powerful.

Make the Portuguese resist a lot before a union with the Crown of Spain, and when it does happen, cause a semi-civil war to start, inflicting even more damages on the Spanish.

The English Armada somehow wipes the floor with the Spanish. The English take cities like Lisbon, where they're welcomed with open arms ("greeted as liberators"). No rebellions in Ireland, and give the English major victories in France, the Netherlands, etc. French Wars of Religion end much quicker.

Inflict more significant defeats in the Thirty Year's War on Spain.

There are others, I just probably haven't gotten to them. So now, you've crippled the superpower. Badly. Then, as for Venice:

Get the Ottoman Empire to be badly mauled as well (possibly in a war against Spain?). Maybe the entire Ottoman Army at Vienna is captured, including the Sultan? Loss at Mohac's? Failure to defeat the Mamluks, or a rebellion? Safavids stay stronger?

Italian Renaissance continues? Not sure of the effects of that though. Venice wins in the Italian Wars, gains a favorable peace?

Yeah, going to be real difficult, but after all of these, you may get Venetian colonies in America, Africa, and Asia. Interesting to see a Hong Kong as a Venetian port.

[carlton_bach]

Would it be possible to take this one the other way around, with Venice becoming a trusted ally of Spain? If Spain found itself unable to conquer or control, or even effectively exploit, its colonial empire alone, some kind of concession could well be granted to a 'safe' ally. There is precedent - a German consortium was granted the exploitation of territories in modern-day Venezuela.

It is hard to see how Venice should be that ally, what with the Republican structure in place, but maybe the Austrian Habsburgs manage to extract a submission and the Spanish branch considers that enough? Concessions can later be turned into full control, say as a precondition of a different peace settlement after the War of the Spanish Succession.

[Condottiero]

What about making an asian venetian empire?
The Egyptians mameluks, trying to avoid the ottoman threat ally themselves with the venetians. The Venetians upgrade and reinforce the egyptian army and the ottomans are defeated. As token of gratitude and as protection to other attacks from the East the egyptians cede Venice the Sinai and Suez. From there the venetians start to trade with India, China and the East coast of Africa. The manage to defeat the Portuguese and take their outposts in the Indian Ocean. Venetian settlements make more secure the Sinai and soon they have colonies in Madagascar, Zanzibar, Aden, Hormuz, India and even Australia!

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Mohacs and the Mamelukes were history in 1550. The Spanish alliance is the idea that occured to me as well. An alternative is to get them to take over the western Maghreb, which would allow the Venetians to ignore Gibraltar by using an Atlantic port (Ceuta, Tangier, Salé, Mogador, Rabat, Agadir).

[Smaug]

Originally Posted by Condottiero

What about making an asian venetian empire?
The Egyptians mameluks, trying to avoid the ottoman threat ally themselves with the venetians. The Venetians upgrade and reinforce the egyptian army and the ottomans are defeated. As token of gratitude and as protection to other attacks from the East the egyptians cede Venice the Sinai and Suez. From there the venetians start to trade with India, China and the East coast of Africa. The manage to defeat the Portuguese and take their outposts in the Indian Ocean. Venetian settlements make more secure the Sinai and soon they have colonies in Madagascar, Zanzibar, Aden, Hormuz, India and even Australia!

This is more practical. Let the Venetians trade a trip around the Cape for a relatively short caravan through the Sinai. If they have ships in the Red Sea and the Med., they might end up being more efficient than the longer way around...Assuming the short land trip is very, very safe. A Suez canal at this time would of course mess everything up, unless the Veniceans(?) own it.

I've always like the way that this might screw with any need to, "Go West". Europe just wanted Asian goods cheap.

[Max Sinister]

Build the Suez Canal earlier.

[Ran Exilis]

There was a canal between the easternmost branch of the Nile and the Red Sea in Pharonic times, and this canal may also have existed in Ptolemean times (although I'm not entirely sure about that), and if it did still exist in Ptolemean times, it may still have been in use in some period of the (early) Roman age as well.

But as far as I know, there was no functional canal between the Nile and the Red Sea during the islamic age, and if there was, then I'm pretty sure that it fell into disuse and became no longer functional during the rule of the Mamelukes, which was a dark age for Egypt.

[WhatIsAUserName]

Not sure how a Suez Canal would help Venice, I mean, the Med isn't their lake, and the Ottomans, even if they haven't gotten Egypt, would have their eyes on it. I bet the Spanish would try to get that too.

[Smaug]

Originally Posted by WhatIsAUserName

Not sure how a Suez Canal would help Venice, I mean, the Med isn't their lake, and the Ottomans, even if they haven't gotten Egypt, would have their eyes on it. I bet the Spanish would try to get that too.

My point is that they don't need to sail around Africa if they build two fleets. One to take care of business in the Indian Ocean, and one to take care of business in the Med. As long as they have a safe trans-shipment route from the Red Sea to the Med., it just becomes a matter of whether its economically cheaper than going around Africa, or around South America. I'm thinking that it would be cheaper for some time, but certainly not century's. Venice would be able to dodge the Levant and the Silk Road, while only giving Egypt a cut of the profits, rather than 2,000 miles worth of local warlords taking thier cut. Just a thought. A timely Suez canal would be off the hook though. Even a barge type canal system would be great too. No need to sail ocean going ships through it, just pass large quantities of freight through it. Rafts pulled by cheap labor, or camels or whatever.

Wouldn't a hundred mile land trip offset the price of going around the Cape? Maybe not, but it might work for a while.

[Tocomocho]

Originally Posted by carlton_bach

Would it be possible to take this one the other way around, with Venice becoming a trusted ally of Spain? If Spain found itself unable to conquer or control, or even effectively exploit, its colonial empire alone, some kind of concession could well be granted to a 'safe' ally. There is precedent - a German consortium was granted the exploitation of territories in modern-day Venezuela.

It is hard to see how Venice should be that ally, what with the Republican structure in place, but maybe the Austrian Habsburgs manage to extract a submission and the Spanish branch considers that enough? Concessions can later be turned into full control, say as a precondition of a different peace settlement after the War of the Spanish Succession.

Venice and the Spanish Habsburgs were actually close allies most of the time, in order to keep away the Ottomans from Italy. Probably if Venice lose Cyprus earlier (around 1520), she could realise that her commerce in the eastern Med was doomed and later buy some land to Charles V in the Americas. He always needed money, and didn't care much about America in comparison with his successors.

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Originally Posted by Tocomocho

Probably if Venice lose Cyprus earlier (around 1520), she could realise that her commerce in the eastern Med was doomed and later buy some land to Charles V in the Americas.

The challenge was that the colonies would not be purchased, but if they purchase the rights to the territory and establish the colonies afterwards that would work.