OT- Hebrews more skilful in siege warfare

[Melvin Loh]

WI during the OT the Hebrews from DEUTERONOMY onwards had more of an understanding of siege warfare than OTL- say if they knew by the time of David and Solomon how to effectively construct and employ such devices as catapults, siege towers, and battering rams ?

(just inspired by a book I read on ancient siege warfare today)

[robertp6165]

Originally Posted by Melvin Loh

WI during the OT the Hebrews from DEUTERONOMY onwards had more of an understanding of siege warfare than OTL- say if they knew by the time of David and Solomon how to effectively construct and employ such devices as catapults, siege towers, and battering rams ?

(just inspired by a book I read on ancient siege warfare today)

Well, considering that probably nobody else in the ancient world at that time was using such techniques, they would be remembered as military innovators. Even Assyria, where most of these things seem to have been first used, doesn't seem to have started using them until 100-200 years after Solomon.

However, if they did invent these things, we can surmise a larger and possibly more permanent Israelite empire. Instead of simply defeating the enemy armies in the field and then accepting tribute from the defeated rulers, David and Solomon might have installed actual Israelite governors in places like Damascus, Hamath, and other cities in Syria. If they chose to be as ruthless as the Assyrians, you might even have seen some of these places repopulated with Israelites after they were taken, with the original population killed or sold into slavery. If that happened, you then have a much larger Israelite "core area" afterward, which could have given them the ability to grow in population enough to maybe have a better chance against Assyria later. Even then, though, it's not likely they'd be able to permanently escape Assyrian domination.

And maybe there would be more evidence of the Israelite Empire left in the archaelogical record, so MarkA would have to accept the possibility that David and Solomon existed after all.

[MarkA]

Originally Posted by robertp6165

Well, considering that probably nobody else in the ancient world at that time was using such techniques, they would be remembered as military innovators. Even Assyria, where most of these things seem to have been first used, doesn't seem to have started using them until 100-200 years after Solomon.

However, if they did invent these things, we can surmise a larger and possibly more permanent Israelite empire. Instead of simply defeating the enemy armies in the field and then accepting tribute from the defeated rulers, David and Solomon might have installed actual Israelite governors in places like Damascus, Hamath, and other cities in Syria. If they chose to be as ruthless as the Assyrians, you might even have seen some of these places repopulated with Israelites after they were taken, with the original population killed or sold into slavery. If that happened, you then have a much larger Israelite "core area" afterward, which could have given them the ability to grow in population enough to maybe have a better chance against Assyria later. Even then, though, it's not likely they'd be able to permanently escape Assyrian domination.

And maybe there would be more evidence of the Israelite Empire left in the archaelogical record, so MarkA would have to accept the possibility that David and Solomon existed after all.

Very funny!

Why would the Israelites need seige weapons when Samson could just pull down the all the buildings they need to and trumpet blasts would demolish all the walls.

They may be in a spot of trouble if Heracles decides to fight Samson I suppose. And of course if Achilles battles David then we would have a real contest. Not to mention Zeus flexing his muscles against Yahveh!

Please move this to the fantasy or ASB area and keep this site for alternate history.

[Smaug]

Nice....this gave me a good chuckle just sayin

[Keenir]

Originally Posted by MarkA

Very funny!

Why would the Israelites need seige weapons when Samson could just pull down the all the buildings they need to and trumpet blasts would demolish all the walls.

They may be in a spot of trouble if Heracles decides to fight Samson I suppose. And of course if Achilles battles David then we would have a real contest. Not to mention Zeus flexing his muscles against Yahveh!

Please move this to the fantasy or ASB area and keep this site for alternate history.

it was alternate history...you're the one being rediculous.

[Smaug]

I guess i was just enjoying the venom involved....obviously they've chatted before:l

[MarkA]

Originally Posted by Smaug

I guess i was just enjoying the venom involved....obviously they've chatted before:l

Glad you enjoy the argument.

Some people unfortunately think that the Bible is a historical document. Despite the lack of any historical evidence for their existence we continually get people claiming something or other for David and Solomon. I just get so pissed off with that.

If you could inject some humour or good natured ribbing it would be appreciated.

[Keenir]

Originally Posted by MarkA

Some people unfortunately think that the Bible is a historical document. Despite the lack of any historical evidence for their existence we continually get people claiming something or other for David and Solomon. I just get so pissed off with that.

If you could inject some humour or good natured ribbing it would be appreciated.

*ribs you* The thread here said during the time of Deuteronomy, which gives us a time frame.

The thread here also gave us a what-if.

And whether or not you believe in the existance of an actual David and-or Solomon, such a weapon would greatly enhance the military ability of such a person if they existed (and would increase the likelyhood of some such person arising if they didn't already).

[robertp6165]

Originally Posted by MarkA

Very funny!

Why would the Israelites need seige weapons when Samson could just pull down the all the buildings they need to and trumpet blasts would demolish all the walls.

They may be in a spot of trouble if Heracles decides to fight Samson I suppose. And of course if Achilles battles David then we would have a real contest. Not to mention Zeus flexing his muscles against Yahveh!

Sounds like the makings of a good computer game, MarkA.

Originally Posted by MarkA

If you could inject some humour or good natured ribbing it would be appreciated.

Odd, that's what I thought I did!

[Grimm Reaper]

Nah, the Philistines chase Samson off by charging him with an arsenal of razors and other hair-cutting implements...

It was in this time period that an 'Israel' first comes into the historical record, as a minor local power which apparently enjoyed all of two generations as a regional hegemon in the period as the entire literate world was recuperating from a rather nasty ravage at the hands of various wandering tribes.

Note that even in this peak of power 'Israel' was unable to destroy most of the neighbors(Edom, Moab, Damascus, Philistine) but was only able to extract recognition of the dominant position of the 'Israelites'.

One might also note that, if we go by the Old Testament, Israel did this in a strong partnership with the Phoenecians and when the alliance collapsed entirely due to Israeli behavior(see Ahab, Jezebel) Israel's own position went down FAST.

It appears Egypt was openly supporting Israel as a buffer, if not an appetizer for absorption(see Pharoah's daughter, Solomon's wife). The degree to which Israel actually received support from Egypt is unknown but, as the Philistines were associated with the People of the Sea(whom the Egyptians feared and loathed with good reason), it is not unreasonable that a certain degree of aid was forthcoming for some time. Then, of course, the possibility that Egypt might send an army to support the favored satellite could never be entirely ruled out by the other, much smaller and weaker, local states.

Going by the Old Testament there is not the slightest chance that Israel could enjoy a larger population base under any plausible circumstances as they simply did not convert that way. According to the Old Testament one town in Canaan which surrendered to the Israelites was still a distinguishable and subservient group half a millenium later!

Further, not only did the Israelites not work that way, neither did any of the neighbors, or the Israelities would have been destroyed by any of several neighboring groups, with the Philistines as the favored choice. Instead, when on the losing side, the Israelites got exactly what they imposed on the neighbors under David and Solomon, to wit, tribute and kowtowing and (presumably) various restrictions.

Then came the Assyrians with some new ideas of warfare...