Founding the German Empire.......in 1815

[Beck Reilly]

What if...

In February of 1815, while the Congress is in recess due to Napoleon’s escape from Elba, Prince Klemens von Metternich, the Austrian minister of state who acted as president of the Congress, dies in a freak horse-riding accident...

Now, with Congress reconvening, we have several enormous figure advocating for the unification of the German states. With the foremost and most crucial opponent to the unification, Prince Klemens von Metternich, lying in a grave, Prince Karl August von Hardenberg, Baron Heinrich von Stein, and Alexander I of Russia take this as an oppurtunity to create the German Empire, in 1815.

Now what happens?

[PM Nixon]

I'm not an expert in European history around this time, but if a German empire is formed at this time, then the balance of power in Europe will be greatly changed. For one, France will have a serious competitor on its borders, not exactly something they'll forget anytime soon. Britain will have to deal with this eventually as well; I would not be surprised if an arms race between the two nations develops sooner than IOTL. One question: this will include Prussia, right? If so, this changes European politics later on in the century, especially those of Bismark, whose dream of a unified Germany has already been realized.

[Beck Reilly]

Yes, the German Empire would include Prussia, almost certainly with Friedrich Wilhelm III becoming the King or Kaiser of the new nation. In fact, at this time, of the two men I mention here (Hardenberg and Stein), Hardenberg is the Chancellor of Prussia between 1810 and 1817, and Stein was the Prussian equivalent to the Ambassador to Russia during the Napoleonic Wars.

[Straha]

in order to stick it to the french, gemrnay might get alsace-lorraine in 1815....

[PM Nixon]

Originally Posted by Walter_Kaufmann

Yes, the German Empire would include Prussia, almost certainly with Friedrich Wilhelm III becoming the King or Kaiser of the new nation. In fact, at this time, of the two men I mention here (Hardenberg and Stein), Hardenberg is the Chancellor of Prussia between 1810 and 1817, and Stein was the Prussian equivalent to the Ambassador to Russia during the Napoleonic Wars.

Thanks for the info. Germany is going to be a strong power very soon. The alliance system may come into being alot sooner. Anyone think this will have an impact on the Crimean War?

[Beck Reilly]

That's exactly what I was thinking, Nixon. I see a Germany siding with Britain and moving on Russia over land. I see a much more successful Crimean War with possibly an independent, though German-dependent, Ukraine appearing. Will this have any impact on the ACW? It will provide for a third power for the CSA to seek recognition...

[PM Nixon]

Originally Posted by Walter_Kaufmann

That's exactly what I was thinking, Nixon. I see a Germany siding with Britain and moving on Russia over land. I see a much more successful Crimean War with possibly an independent, though German-dependent, Ukraine appearing. Will this have any impact on the ACW? It will provide for a third power for the CSA to seek recognition...

I doubt that the Germans would render aid or even recognition of the CSA, unless of course to tick off France and Britain. They could see something in weakening the USA, believing them to be a future threat......


The Crimean War could be a lot worse for the Russians. The French may find a hard time siding with Germany....you think it's possible for Germany and Britain to face off against France and Russia over this?

[Beck Reilly]

I think that we'll see Germany joining with Britain. I'm not real sure about the French. I don't see them joining sides with either Germany or Russia at this point in time. Maybe you'd see them moodily pointing at Germany and telling Britain "I'm not going if they are." I think you may see France sit this one out. You may also see Austria join the war due to German influence.

Of course, I guess it's possible that you could see a World War start...

France, Kingdom of Sardinia, Spain, United States, and Russia
vs.
Germany, Britain, Austria-Hungary, Ottoman Empire, and, eventually, the Ukraine

[PM Nixon]

Originally Posted by Walter_Kaufmann

I think that we'll see Germany joining with Britain. I'm not real sure about the French. I don't see them joining sides with either Germany or Russia at this point in time. Maybe you'd see them moodily pointing at Germany and telling Britain "I'm not going if they are." I think you may see France sit this one out. You may also see Austria join the war due to German influence.

Of course, I guess it's possible that you could see a World War start...

France, Kingdom of Sardinia, Spain, United States, and Russia
vs.
Germany, Britain, Austria-Hungary, Ottoman Empire, and, eventually, the Ukraine

That is what I was thinking: an early World War. But I like the French staying out of the war, that seems a wee bit plausible. Germany will form strong ties with Austria, and probably with Great Britain acting as a possible mediator between them and France.

[Beck Reilly]

Yup, Nix, that's how I see it.

There's going to be a treaty eventually formed between Germany, Britain, and Austria-Hungary and another between France, Russia, and Italy. The US and Ottoman Turks are the wild cards in this timeline. Eventual war around the turn of the century between the two alliances. BGA-H eventual victory. More peaceful 20th overall.

[PM Nixon]

Originally Posted by Walter_Kaufmann

Yup, Nix, that's how I see it.

There's going to be a treaty eventually formed between Germany, Britain, and Austria-Hungary and another between France, Russia, and Italy. The US and Ottoman Turks are the wild cards in this timeline. Eventual war around the turn of the century between the two alliances. BGA-H eventual victory. More peaceful 20th overall.

Thinking about doing a formal TL? This is a POD I've never seen explored before. I guess the Ottomans would join the Brits, thanks to Russia on France's side. Interesting war this would prove to be....Russia and Italy would handle Austria-Hungary and Germany, while France squares off with GB and Germany. Maybe GB doesn't take as heavy casualties as IOTL, leaving most of the ground war to Germany.....

[Beck Reilly]

I don't know, maybe I'll do an actual TL. I'm sort of short on time, though. The combination of GB's naval power and Germany's army is almost irresistable...

[PM Nixon]

Originally Posted by Walter_Kaufmann

I don't know, maybe I'll do an actual TL. I'm sort of short on time, though. The combination of GB's naval power and Germany's army is almost irresistable...

Ah yes, it most certainly is.....

[Beck Reilly]

Would anyone be interested in working on a timeline with me? I simply don't have the time in the coming weeks to do it by myself.

[PM Nixon]

Originally Posted by Walter_Kaufmann

Would anyone be interested in working on a timeline with me? I simply don't have the time in the coming weeks to do it by myself.

Maybe I could, but I'm gonna be busy myself with school.....maybe Straha would help?

[Beck Reilly]

Yeah, anything else that you think would occur in this timeline besides this First World War?

[Straha]

heh europe in 1815 isn't my specialty sorry.. I can give advice for the ameircas thoguh...

[PM Nixon]

Originally Posted by Walter_Kaufmann

Yeah, anything else that you think would occur in this timeline besides this First World War?

Hmmm....I'll give some suggestions tomorrow. I need a bit of time to think about it.

[LDoc]

I'm willing to help on this TL as Germanys is one the places i'm most interested in.

[Beck Reilly]

Okay, that'd be great LDoc. You got any ideas to add to what Nix and I have been saying?