WI HRE and Byzantium united?

[Fearless Leader]

Ok I was reading through my copy of John Julius Norwich's "Short History of Byzantium" when I came across this interesting passage regarding the King Otto III and his attempts to wed the Byzantine Princess Zoe (niece of Basil II) However as Zoe travelled to meet Otto he was stricken with a sudden fever and died.

Now WI

Otto III doesn't get sick and Him and Zoe have a son lets call him Otto IV. Now John Julius Norwich said the following about this hypothetical son

"Poor Zoe: if she and Otto had had a son, he might have inherited not only the western empire but -in the absence of any male heir- the Eastern as well, uniting them at last and ruling from France to Persia; and the history of the world would have been changed"

Now your assignment is to give me ideas on how....

[David S Poepoe]

Some how the differences in religion appear insurmountable to me. Consider me crazy, but if I was Zoe's father, or uncle, and she wanted to marry a Catholic heretic I would cut her out from the line of succession. Not to mention the fact that she would have to convert to Catholicism in order to marry Otto III.

[Midgard]

Originally Posted by David S Poepoe

Some how the differences in religion appear insurmountable to me. Consider me crazy, but if I was Zoe's father, or uncle, and she wanted to marry a Catholic heretic I would cut her out from the line of succession. Not to mention the fact that she would have to convert to Catholicism in order to marry Otto III.

Earlier, Otto's father (Otto II) wed a niece of John Tzimisces named Theophano, who was apparently allowed to keep her religion and customs - to the point where, accordingly to Norwich, "her son, future Otto III, grew up to be more of a Greek than a German" - plus, this was before the Great Schism of 1054. Not to mention that the Emperor Basil II apparently presented no difficulties about the marriage of Zoe to Otto III, and was quite enthusiastic about it, as having a niece as Empress of the West was to him a positive achievement.

Finally, Otto III seemed to have major pro-Greek sympathies, which could only have been increased by a Byzantine wife... therefore the marriage itself, which in my understanding was already a decided thing (and fell through only due to Otto's early death about two weeks prior to Zoe's arrival, if I recall), would have probably still went through.

Now whether or not Otto and Zoe's son could have realistically inherited Byzantine throne is up to debate... my guess is probably not, as even if there were no other male heirs of the Macedonian line, the Byzantines saw Germans as barbarians, and would not have been very likely to accept the German Emperor, even though he would be 3/4th Greek (ironically enough) due to his mother and grandmother being of Byzantine origin, without a major armed struggle. It could have potentially led to the earlier equivalent of the IVth Crusade, with Otto IV trying to claim the thrones of both Empires militarily should he have failed to do so diplomatically. Then again, in an unlikely case that the Greek aristocracy, church, military, and people accepted Otto as the rightful claimant to the throne, Norwich's sentiment could have been true.

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Originally Posted by Fearless Leader

Ok I was reading through my copy of John Julius Norwich's "Short History of Byzantium" when I came across this interesting passage regarding the King Otto III and his attempts to wed the Byzantine Princess Zoe (niece of Basil II) However as Zoe travelled to meet Otto he was stricken with a sudden fever and died.

Now WI

Otto III doesn't get sick and Him and Zoe have a son lets call him Otto IV. Now John Julius Norwich said the following about this hypothetical son

"Poor Zoe: if she and Otto had had a son, he might have inherited not only the western empire but -in the absence of any male heir- the Eastern as well, uniting them at last and ruling from France to Persia; and the history of the world would have been changed"

Now your assignment is to give me ideas on how....

The union would only have legitimized the dynasty; it would have had no effect upon Byzantium other than to disgust the population.

The prospect of Zoe marrying Otto to the Byzantines would be the equivalent to what British reaction would have been to marrying Queen Victoria to the Negus of Abyssinia.

[Fearless Leader]

Allright so lets say that Zoe and Otto marry and produce and heir Otto IV. Now Otto IV grows up and assumes the throne of the HRE at around 1030ish maybe before now Byzatium is going through a period of political instability right around now IIRC. So lets say he decides to claim the Byzantine throne by force...

What would this war look like? I doubt the Byzantine empire would be able to hold of the Germans with such incompetent leadership...

And also what would the German dynasty look like? How long would it last? How would this affect the development of Christianity?

[Midgard]

Originally Posted by Fearless Leader

Allright so lets say that Zoe and Otto marry and produce and heir Otto IV. Now Otto IV grows up and assumes the throne of the HRE at around 1030ish maybe before now Byzatium is going through a period of political instability right around now IIRC. So lets say he decides to claim the Byzantine throne by force...

What would this war look like? I doubt the Byzantine empire would be able to hold of the Germans with such incompetent leadership...

And also what would the German dynasty look like? How long would it last? How would this affect the development of Christianity?

Think IVth Crusade 170 years earlier, and the consequences thereof. IMO, the cultural and religious incompatibility would have been too great.

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Originally Posted by Fearless Leader

Allright so lets say that Zoe and Otto marry and produce and heir Otto IV. Now Otto IV grows up and assumes the throne of the HRE at around 1030ish maybe before now Byzatium is going through a period of political instability right around now IIRC. So lets say he decides to claim the Byzantine throne by force...

What would this war look like? I doubt the Byzantine empire would be able to hold of the Germans with such incompetent leadership...

And also what would the German dynasty look like? How long would it last? How would this affect the development of Christianity?

The Byzantine army was so strong in 1030 that you could put a frog in command and it would still kick the ass of anything German you could send against it.

Lately there have been a lot of WIs trying to destroy states at their absolute peaks.

[Faeelin]

Originally Posted by Abdul Hadi Pasha

The Byzantine army was so strong in 1030 that you could put a frog in command and it would still kick the ass of anything German you could send against it.

Lately there have been a lot of WIs trying to destroy states at their absolute peaks.

Hmm.

WI: Cortez invades Ming China, 1535.

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Originally Posted by Faeelin

Hmm.

WI: Cortez invades Ming China, 1535.

Very funny. How about Costa Rica invades USA, 1946?

[htgriffin]

Originally Posted by David S Poepoe

Some how the differences in religion appear insurmountable to me. Consider me crazy, but if I was Zoe's father, or uncle, and she wanted to marry a Catholic heretic I would cut her out from the line of succession. Not to mention the fact that she would have to convert to Catholicism in order to marry Otto III.

Actually....

1. Zoe's dad and uncle had already aquieced (this was no love match)
2. The whole Catholic/Orthodox devide was not that major (mutual excommunions did not happen until the 1050s, and the _real_ bad blood started with the Fourth Crusade)

Originally Posted by midgardmetal

Now whether or not Otto and Zoe's son could have realistically inherited Byzantine throne is up to debate... my guess is probably not, as even if there were no other male heirs of the Macedonian line, the Byzantines saw Germans as barbarians, and would not have been very likely to accept the German Emperor, even though he would be 3/4th Greek (ironically enough) due to his mother and grandmother being of Byzantine origin, without a major armed struggle. It could have potentially led to the earlier equivalent of the IVth Crusade, with Otto IV trying to claim the thrones of both Empires militarily should he have failed to do so diplomatically.

Odds are bloodlines would probably not be enough to prevent Otto III and/or IV from inheriting if they were sufficiently 'civilized' in demeanor and came in with the blessing of a respected emperor (Karl I was an unlettered boor and his would-be bride/co-reginant Irene was widely hated).

My concern is what would happen on the German end. Otto, either of them, is going to get more than a few ideas from the centralized Romaioi administration in Constantinople, and the native Dukes would not be happy (to say nothing of the effective distances involved, and no Baselius worth the name would remove the main court from The City). Best case scenario is a partition between Otto and any brother who wants to deal with the mess (Kaiser Basil?), hopefully not followed by the nightmarish inbreeding that wrecked the Hasburgs.

Originally Posted by Faeelin

Hmm.

WI: Cortez invades Ming China, 1535.

You know... that _would_ be funny.

Perhaps it should be formatted in the memoirs of the enuch Ha Nan.

HTG

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

I just don't see the Byzantines ever accepting a German ruler. To them, the Germans were smelly barbarians.

Originally Posted by htgriffin

Actually....

1. Zoe's dad and uncle had already aquieced (this was no love match)
2. The whole Catholic/Orthodox devide was not that major (mutual excommunions did not happen until the 1050s, and the _real_ bad blood started with the Fourth Crusade)

Odds are bloodlines would probably not be enough to prevent Otto III and/or IV from inheriting if they were sufficiently 'civilized' in demeanor and came in with the blessing of a respected emperor (Karl I was an unlettered boor and his would-be bride/co-reginant Irene was widely hated).

My concern is what would happen on the German end. Otto, either of them, is going to get more than a few ideas from the centralized Romaioi administration in Constantinople, and the native Dukes would not be happy (to say nothing of the effective distances involved, and no Baselius worth the name would remove the main court from The City). Best case scenario is a partition between Otto and any brother who wants to deal with the mess (Kaiser Basil?), hopefully not followed by the nightmarish inbreeding that wrecked the Hasburgs.

You know... that _would_ be funny.

Perhaps it should be formatted in the memoirs of the enuch Ha Nan.

HTG

[htgriffin]

Originally Posted by Abdul Hadi Pasha

I just don't see the Byzantines ever accepting a German ruler. To them, the Germans were smelly barbarians.

Thing is, Otto III was 3/4 Greek by blood and almost entirely so in upbringing. It was still quite possible to 'Go Native' in the Roman Empire at this point, and marrying into the Macedonian Dynasty while being conspicuously un-German would reduce the opposition to a few malcontents.

HTG

[Faeelin]

Why not a Staufen? We're at a point when German culture rivals Byzantium, and Phillip did marry a Byzantine princess.

[htgriffin]

Originally Posted by Faeelin

Why not a Staufen? We're at a point when German culture rivals Byzantium, and Phillip did marry a Byzantine princess.

By then, the Rhomaioi impressions of and relations with the Franks had deteriorated considerably, and marrying into the Empire would certainly cost him Germany if he made himself acceptable in Constantinople.

HTG