AH Challenge: Spartan Society in Medieval Times

[TheLoneAmigo]

With a POD after 200 AD, have a Spartan-stlye militaristic society exist somewhere in the Mediterranean-European region by 800 AD. Points will be awarded for:

-Plausibility
-The length of the society's existance (the longer the better)
-The power and influence of the society.


If it wasn't for Sparta's unified military society, they would have probably descended into feudalism: hoplites are fairly similar to warriors in other cultures that have descended into feudalism, but Sparta remained united for centuries.

[carlton_bach]

Ever hear of the Jomsviking?

It's not that implausible. AS group of germanic or Slavic warriors during the phase of their raiding decides to be tough bastards and live for fighting.

I doubt it'll last long, but presumably there were such societies. In fact, barring the practice of putting useless sons into monasteries rather than killing them, you could argue that Nomandy was such a society around 900-1100. I mean, they thought nothing of going to conquer BYZANTIUM (!) with less than a thousand mounted men. (no, of course it didn't work. but they THOUGHT it could).

[Midgard]

Originally Posted by carlton_bach

In fact, barring the practice of putting useless sons into monasteries rather than killing them, you could argue that Nomandy was such a society around 900-1100. I mean, they thought nothing of going to conquer BYZANTIUM (!) with less than a thousand mounted men. (no, of course it didn't work. but they THOUGHT it could).

And they got pretty close to it, too, and should the Byzantine throne had been occupied by an Emperor of less ability than one Alexius Comnenus, they could very well have been successful. While direct assault on Constantinople was probably a bit beyond their reach (in 1083, that is), they could have succeeded in 1188 (or thereabout), and were almost certain to succeed in 1268 (although it is debatable whether or not Charles of Anjou qualifies as a leader of Normans).

[Adamanteus]

One of the biggest problems of Spartan society was that its upbringing was so rigorous and so exclusive that the numbers of elites was actually decreasing over time. The solution is to open enrollment for non-Spartan citizens, who could perhaps prove their worth through contests of strength.

The other problem is that Spartans depended on the Helots as a permanent slave class. But I suspect that if you opened enrollment you could absorb more conquered slave nations ad infinitum, until the system collapsed.

[aktarian]

One think that is often overlooked is why Spartan society develop in a way that it had. They didn't just held debate whether they should be commerce oriented sea power or militaristic land power and choosing latter. The society was consquence of conquest of Messena. With such large number of subjugated people/slaves Spartans were heavily outnumbered and had to develop such society as they did. Biggest problem was that those slaves were both homogenuos (all being same people) and Greeks (opposed to slaves in other states).

In order to recreate Spartan society in time/space frame proposed here you'd have to have similar situation where small group conquers bigger on and settles there (as opposed to having it as a far away colony).

[MerryPrankster]

Aktarian,

Ever heard of the Teutonic Knights? They were a heavily-armed bunch of Germans who conquered and ruled over various Baltic and Slavic peoples.

I think they're somewhat Spartan.

[Midgard]

Originally Posted by aktarian

In order to recreate Spartan society in time/space frame proposed here you'd have to have similar situation where small group conquers bigger on and settles there (as opposed to having it as a far away colony).

How about more feudal-oriented and militaristic Ostrogoths? Say Justinian's reconquest of Italy fails or never happens, and Ostrogoths, finding themselves heavily outnumbered by native Italians/Romans, and suspecting that the latter's loyalties lay elsewhere, institute a militaristic society designed to repulse any threat from without (such as Byzantium), and to keep the Italian population in line.

From what I understand, there was not much intermixing between the two during Ostrogothic rule of Italy, and if the Goths were bit more feudal, with a mind towards establishing a permanent serf caste, aroung VIth century, and if Justinian's reconquest had failed for some reason or the other, a Gothic kingdom in Italy could have effectively become a new Sparta, and could have resisted the Byzantine, Lombard and Frank invasions with some degree of success for at least several centuries. Any thoughts on this?

[Tom_B]

Perhaps a TL where Mithraism is more vigorous and eventually a leader arises who in disgust over the persecution of his religion postConstantine unites most of the Mithraists in the Roman army and seize a portion of the Empre while it is falling apart. Surrounded by hostile Christinas states the Mithraic community becomes a militaristic state where all soldiers are expected to be Mithraists. The replenishment of the elites could occur by allowing worthy serfs and outsiders who demonstate both an interest in the Mithraic Mysteries and demonstrate military potential.

[aktarian]

Matt

I heard about Teutonic knights. I agree that situation is similar and AFAIK end also simialr (enemies being fed up with them and beat them in "their" field, in battle).

midgardmetal

I don't know much about Ostogoths to say if this is realistic. I made my post because I'm interested in Sparta and just wanted to contribute my 0.02€ about why Sparta was such as it was and that their society didn't just happen.

[Peter Cowan]

There are two other parallels - neither of which are particularly 'Spartan' but which involve a foreign 'Noble Caste' overlaying a bulk population. Oddly enough both are in Spain.

The Visigoth Kingdom - these Germanic people ruled Spain until the Moors turfed them out.

The Moors themselves - ruled (decreasing) bits of Spain until the late 1400's.

In neither case did they manage to impose anything other than the lightest of cultural influences. Get rid of the rulers and the people carry on as before. Languages in Spain are still Latin based (except for the Basque who predate even these) reflecting the many years under Roman rule before wither of these conquests.

[Alayta]

Originally Posted by Tom_B

. Surrounded by hostile Christinas states the Mithraic community becomes a militaristic state where all soldiers are expected to be Mithraists. .

Nice idea!! It is difficult to establish a spartalike society in mobile mediaval Europe. it has to be positionated in some remote area. The pyreniennes are a good place, maybe portugal or some hills in nowerdays romania