Could there ever have been the formation of two distinct Chinas, one centered around a northern, Mandarin-speaking culture, and a southern, Cantonese-speaking one?
Distinctly Cantonese-speaking culture in China?
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Hendryk
Banned
One nitpick before we go further is that, while northern China is fairly homogeneous linguistically, with everyone speaking a mutually intelligible variant of Mandarin as a first language, in the south it's another story. While Cantonese is spoken in Guangdong (and overseas communities settled by Guangdong outmigrants), other southern provinces are home to a bewildering array of local dialects. I don't think this situation would be any different if southern China were to be culturally and politically independent from the North.
Even in Taiwan, which is the size of Belgium, several dialects are spoken to this day, and in the subway the names of stations are announced in Mandarin, Minnan and Hakka (and English for the benefit of tourists).
Even in Taiwan, which is the size of Belgium, several dialects are spoken to this day, and in the subway the names of stations are announced in Mandarin, Minnan and Hakka (and English for the benefit of tourists).
HelloLegend
Banned
Hen is correct, there are many "countryside" dialects in China
that range of 50,000 to 1 million speakers only.
"Cantonese" otherwise known as Guangdong Hua (Wa) has many millions of speakers, but it is no more influential on China as whole than the state of Georgia is to the rest of the United States. While it is true that Georgia contains the very large city of Atlanta, which is a regional powerhouse... it certainly cannot be said that it would be "half" of the American culture when you consider it is only one of 50.
What I mean to say, is that a disproportionate number of "Cantonese" speakers have had access to immigration to North America and Europe.
This is mainly due to Hong Kong having been British giving Cantonese speakers an easier way to exit China. Therefore an "illusion" is created where you think that "half" of China speaks Cantonese simply because almost half Chinese population in Los Angeles or New York speak Cantonese. This is quite understandable.
Also, recent trend supports the following statement...
More Cantonese speakers are learning Mandarin in Hong Kong due
to PRC takeover since 97 which creates even less incentive for Mandarin speakers in the area to learn Cantonese.
Hong Kong school kids learn Mandarin and English along with Cantonese.
There is no likewise strong push to learn "Cantonese" in Hebei province in the North.
Northerners have historically viewed Southerners as being "hicks" this is true in both America and China.
that range of 50,000 to 1 million speakers only.
"Cantonese" otherwise known as Guangdong Hua (Wa) has many millions of speakers, but it is no more influential on China as whole than the state of Georgia is to the rest of the United States. While it is true that Georgia contains the very large city of Atlanta, which is a regional powerhouse... it certainly cannot be said that it would be "half" of the American culture when you consider it is only one of 50.
What I mean to say, is that a disproportionate number of "Cantonese" speakers have had access to immigration to North America and Europe.
This is mainly due to Hong Kong having been British giving Cantonese speakers an easier way to exit China. Therefore an "illusion" is created where you think that "half" of China speaks Cantonese simply because almost half Chinese population in Los Angeles or New York speak Cantonese. This is quite understandable.
Also, recent trend supports the following statement...
More Cantonese speakers are learning Mandarin in Hong Kong due
to PRC takeover since 97 which creates even less incentive for Mandarin speakers in the area to learn Cantonese.
Hong Kong school kids learn Mandarin and English along with Cantonese.
There is no likewise strong push to learn "Cantonese" in Hebei province in the North.
Northerners have historically viewed Southerners as being "hicks" this is true in both America and China.
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Thande
Donor
In fact it seems to be true in just about every country except England where it's the other way around - we just have to be different
The Cantonese thing is interesting because I was also under the impression that it was a far more widespread and influential language in China than you and Hendryk describe - as you say, probably because of the disproportionate number of Cantonese-speaking immigrants to the UK and USA. Notably a lot of Chinese restaurants in the UK describe themselves as vending "Chinese and Cantonese food", as the UK idea of what 'Chinese' food represents is I think in reality just restricted to one area of China.
HelloLegend
Banned
In fact it seems to be true in just about every country except England where it's the other way around - we just have to be different
The Cantonese thing is interesting because I was also under the impression that it was a far more widespread and influential language in China than you and Hendryk describe - as you say, probably because of the disproportionate number of Cantonese-speaking immigrants to the UK and USA. Notably a lot of Chinese restaurants in the UK describe themselves as vending "Chinese and Cantonese food", as the UK idea of what 'Chinese' food represents is I think in reality just restricted to one area of China.
I was surprised to find out San Paulo is larger and more culturally influential in Brazil than Rio De Janiero.
HelloLegend
Banned
Racially, the Southerners are more Chinese.
The Northerner have done a lot of blood mixing.
Many of us have Mongolian/Manchurian racial physical traits that are apparent only at the time of new birth. The baby's buttocks are bluish green for a few weeks before normal color is restored. This is a non-Chinese trait. But common in northern Chinese provinces.
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HelloLegend
Banned
In fact it seems to be true in just about every country except England where it's the other way around - we just have to be different
The Cantonese thing is interesting because I was also under the impression that it was a far more widespread and influential language in China than you and Hendryk describe - as you say, probably because of the disproportionate number of Cantonese-speaking immigrants to the UK and USA. Notably a lot of Chinese restaurants in the UK describe themselves as vending "Chinese and Cantonese food", as the UK idea of what 'Chinese' food represents is I think in reality just restricted to one area of China.
Like I said, Guangdong (the Cantonese province) is about as influential on China as the state of Georgia is on the USA... or Yorkshire on the UK, eh? One of many common provinces.
Thande
Donor
Now you're getting personal
We are the largest county in the UK, sort of more like Texas to the US...in the eighteenth century, the Parliamentary votes of Yorkshire (though all the counties were theoretically equally represented) were considered the second most valuable after those of Middlesex (London).
Flocculencio
Donor
As HelloLegend pointed out, that's because Hong Kong is in a Cantonese speaking region.
In other communities of the Chinese diaspora the situation is very different- frex in Singapore you can hardly find any Cantonese speakers. The vast majority of Singaporean Chinese are of Hokkien, Hakka or Teochew origin.
Hapsburg
Banned
Perhaps Britain becomes more aggressive in the Opium Wars, and seizes parts of southern China, enforcing English and Cantonese as official languages of the region (one for diplomacy and government, the other for the common people). Rather than making herself "Empress of India" in 1877, Victoria takes the title "Empress of China"? Over the decades of Britannic rule, Cantonese becomes the most widely-spoken language in British China, with English remaining more of a governmental and diplomatic language.
That's probably the latest an effective and plausible POD can occur.
That's probably the latest an effective and plausible POD can occur.
Flocculencio
Donor
Imperial titles don't work like that- she can't take the title "Empress of China" so long as there is still a Chinese Emperor in Peking. In OTL, the Imperial title of India was vacant after the last Mughal Emperor was deposed.
Besides, why would she not take the title of Empress of India?
And why would the British enforce Cantonese as a second language? They never interfered with the local languages anywhere else in their Empire- in India, for example, they didn't mandate Hindi as a second language in non-Hindi speaking areas.
Guangdong is currently the province in China with the largest GDP (nominal I believe).
Plus, it's on the southern coast, which is a much added bonus.
But either way, I don't think that there are enough Cantonese speakers for a culture of their own. Only 70-80 million speak it, IIRC.
Hapsburg
Banned
Why not?
Not necessarilly. If she takes the title of "Wang" rather than "Huangdi", it won't be seen as an assumption of power over all of china; at the same time, she could assume the title "Empress of India" as well as "Queen of Guangdong" or whatever the hell it would be.
Or, she could take the Mandate of Heaven and boot the Qing out of Beijing.
The thread title says "Distinctly Cantonese-speaking culture in China". I'm just conforming it to the thread's titular requests.
This reminds me of a book I read a while back. "Hawaii", by Mischener(?). Great book. But at one point, it made reference to a sort of ongoing dislike between the Hakka and another group (sorry, can't remember the name).
But it implied a sincere dislike between Hill People(Hakka), and low landers(?).
Anyone else know anything about this? It got me to look into China a bit more, and I was amazed at the diversity there, esp. in the South.
But it implied a sincere dislike between Hill People(Hakka), and low landers(?).
Anyone else know anything about this? It got me to look into China a bit more, and I was amazed at the diversity there, esp. in the South.
That's why a very early POD is necessary for this to happen. But I still think there has to be a reason that Cantonese is the second biggest dialect of Chinese.
No, Wu and Hakka are next, at around 90-100 million each. Cantonese does have an effect out of proportion to it's population.
Can't think of any helpful POD's. Maybe Han civilization focuses on the southern provinces rather than the Yangtze and Yellow River valleys? Wu of the Three Kingdom's completely trounces all opposition (though butterflies will wreak havoc on the world with such an early POD).