WI Amerind ancestors ride instead of eating....

NapoleonXIV

Banned
..the horses they find here? That is, the native Americans domesticate the original horse about the time they would have extincted them, which is, I think about 10000 years ago. They may eat them as well, as do we, but they are kept, raised and used for both riding and draft. Assume that the Amerind culture develops as necessary to accomplish this.
 

Max Sinister

Banned
I think it's not that simple... OTL Amerindians learned that / how you can ride horses from the Europeans. The first people who used horses (Mesopotamians against steppe people / barbarians) didn't ride horses, but used chariots. At that time, they had already little kingdoms, which the Indians (when they settled NA) hadn't.
 

Michael B

Max Sinister said:
I think it's not that simple... OTL Amerindians learned that / how you can ride horses from the Europeans. The first people who used horses (Mesopotamians against steppe people / barbarians) didn't ride horses, but used chariots. At that time, they had already little kingdoms, which the Indians (when they settled NA) hadn't.
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Correction, Mesopotamian chariots were originally pulled by onagers not horses. The first horse charioteers were those living in the borderlands between the civilised river kingdoms and the steppes. The reason for this is for a horse drawn chariot you need horses and wood and you can't get the latter from the steppe. It is too arid for many trees.

Furthermore, the first charioteers weren't soldiers, they were mounted herdsmen who quickly saw the advantage of being able to outmaneouvre the infantry hordes of the civilised river kingdoms.

Taking this to North America, your first charioteers are going to appear on the boundary between the Great Plains and a forested region.

******

To reach maxium effectiveness, mounted archers need composite bows; for a given size they are more powerul than the contemporary simple bows.Any one know if any Indian tribe made composite bows?
 

rewster

The domestication event would have been very early... earlier than in Eurasia. That's not to say it couldn't happen, it just would have had to happen differently. There were no domestic grains or pulses yet, but they did have dogs, I believe. They would have needed to come upon the concept of herd management, I think... they probably would use the horses as food still, but exert more control over a single herd, in order to maintain a constant food source. Once they'd gotten them fenced in somehow, domestication would follow eventually. I think it is also possible for horseback riding to precede chariots. The young of the controlled herd would grow up with more familiarity with humans, and eventually (perhaps a few generations in) they would probably be willing to let someone lead them... then a few more generations, and you could be riding.

There's going to be a huge effect on everything else that happens in the Americas afterward. For one thing, having domesticated horses in 10,000 BC puts them about 6000 years ahead of Eurasia. So much for having to play catch up.
 

rewster

Michael B said:
Taking this to North America, your first charioteers are going to appear on the boundary between the Great Plains and a forested region.
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This is going to be impossible, if charioteers are the reason for domestication, because the horses would have died out millenia earlier. But if they hadn't died out, this is exactly what I would expect to happen.
To reach maxium effectiveness, mounted archers need composite bows; for a given size they are more powerul than the contemporary simple bows.Any one know if any Indian tribe made composite bows?
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composite bows showed up with the much later migration of the na-dene speaking peoples. The Apache and Navajo possessed them. However, there is no reason not to expect it to arise earlier, given the domestication of horses as a POD.
 

Doctor What

NapoleonXIV said:
..the horses they find here? That is, the native Americans domesticate the original horse about the time they would have extincted them, which is, I think about 10000 years ago. They may eat them as well, as do we, but they are kept, raised and used for both riding and draft. Assume that the Amerind culture develops as necessary to accomplish this.
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Small correction: Although it is believed that they were eaten by the Amerindians, there has few if any actual mass kill sites found with horse remains. A disease theory is one theory that's given as the explanation for their extinction as well as climate change.

That being said--the POD has to be *very* early. Horses weren't even domesticated until ~4500 BC and the last North American horse is believed to have died off around 6000 BC so we have a minimum of 1500 years to work with here. Since the die-off started to occur around 8000 BC, we may have to have an even earlier POD.

Theoretically--it is possible that if this did occur it will almost certainly develop among the Plains area. The groups there will be in a position to best use the horses.

Heh--we may end up with an Amerindian version of Genghis Khan.....
 

rewster

Doctor What said:
But of course--this is alt-hist and the two main cliches in all of alt-hist are airships and amerindian genghis khan....:rolleyes: :p
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Well, once we write the timeline for this, we'll have airships in 4000 BC, because the Amerindians are 6000 years ahead due to the extremely early horse domestication. Then we will have the southern tribes defeat the northern tribes in a war over slavery... Perhaps after that a fascist Mesoamerica will win a war called World War II... most likely due to the Confederate States of Amerindia industrializing heavily and siding with the fascists.
Fascist Aztec airships pwn.
 

Midgard

Speaking of which, it might have given me an idea for the next project... well, one of them, anyway. Constructing thousands of years of American civilization to make it roughly similar in power to the European one around XVth century or so... that would be interesting.
 

rewster

midgardmetal said:
Speaking of which, it might have given me an idea for the next project... well, one of them, anyway. Constructing thousands of years of American civilization to make it roughly similar in power to the European one around XVth century or so... that would be interesting.
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Sounds like quite the project... what would you use as the POD? The horse idea? I think that, although I may have been exaggerating with the "6000 years ahead" (Eurasia should gain ground in other areas, like crop domestication), having an earlier domestication of horses in the Americas does give them an advantage, which may even the playing field.
 

rewster

Dave Howery said:
horses, yes... but still no cattle, sheep, pigs, grain, etc....
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But they do have llamas and alpacas. And maize and beans will arise eventually (and almost definitely earlier). Potatoes as well. Not to mention the "supercrop" quinoa. They'll develop the horse collar sooner out of necessity, which I believe I have read somewhere means about a 25% increase in efficiency over oxen when plowing a field. Remember, we're giving the Amerinds a head start over Europe of 6000 years as far as the horse, so other advantages the Eurasians have are diminished.
From there, you can pretty much invent the rest, but it is certainly plausible, if you accept the POD (which is a bit far fetched but not ASB), for Europe and the Americas to be on par technologically at 1500 AD. (The 4000BC part was more of a joke, as I do agree the Eurasians had other advantages).
 

Dave Howery

maize and beans aren't as handy as wheat and other European grains... the latter took little work to make them into usable crops, but it took a looooooong time to get maize and beans into a usable size... one more reason why the Euros got such a jump on the NAs.... potatoes are going to have a hard time moving north, as they don't grow so well in the tropics, but if horses allow the setting up of widespread trade routes, they might reach NA early enough... potatoes are one crop that could really make a difference there, although they are a little less handy than grain in that they can't be stored for very long...
 

rewster

Dave Howery said:
maize and beans aren't as handy as wheat and other European grains... the latter took little work to make them into usable crops, but it took a looooooong time to get maize and beans into a usable size... one more reason why the Euros got such a jump on the NAs.... potatoes are going to have a hard time moving north, as they don't grow so well in the tropics, but if horses allow the setting up of widespread trade routes, they might reach NA early enough... potatoes are one crop that could really make a difference there, although they are a little less handy than grain in that they can't be stored for very long...
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It is true that maize and beans took longer to domesticate. However, you are starting way earlier due to faster migration and higher populations. Therefore, overall the Amerinds are still ahead, or at least even on grain crops.
 

Keenir

Banned
rewster said:
It is true that maize and beans took longer to domesticate. However, you are starting way earlier due to faster migration and higher populations. Therefore, overall the Amerinds are still ahead, or at least even on grain crops.
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if they start too early, though, corn might be butterflied away.
 

rewster

Keenir said:
if they start too early, though, corn might be butterflied away.
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I suppose that's possible, but there is research to suggest domestication starting around 9000 years ago, which probably is not going to be butterflied away.

And about potatoes... they can be turned into flour, flakes, and other readily storable forms.

So, even if corn is butterflied away, potatoes are still a solid option.
 

Smaug

Dave Howery said:
horses, yes... but still no cattle, sheep, pigs, grain, etc....
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A girl named Ayla is born and raised by Neanderthals...After being kicked out of her Clan, she goes on to discover how to create fire, sew up wounds, domesticate horses (and wolves), invents the Atlatl, learns to make soap and fire clay, and most importantly invents the missionary position. :p :rolleyes:

That should take care of it...
 

rewster

Smaug said:
A girl named Ayla is born and raised by Neanderthals...After being kicked out of her Clan, she goes on to discover how to create fire, sew up wounds, domesticate horses (and wolves), invents the Atlatl, learns to make soap and fire clay, and most importantly invents the missionary position. :p :rolleyes:

That should take care of it...
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Wha?:confused: Haha, who is ayla? Is that from a book or something, or did you just make it up?:)
 

HueyLong

Banned
I believe it was from a book about a Neanderthal civilization- at least if I remember the premise correctly.
 
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